Quoting: exo2769
I appreciate the conversation. Truly, I do. I'm not of the same opinion as you when it comes to Kubalik's value. I think most of it falls on the prospect. The Hawks don't want or need Vesalainen. In my personal opinion...he's not a plus at all. You're asking us to slow down the development of our own prospects because you have the opinion that your "Alex Nylander" is better than our "Alex Nylander". If you were to ask me...would I take another Nylander and a 2nd...I'd still say no.
What I'd like the Hawks to do is see what his arbitration is negotiate a 5 year deal. He'll get contract certainty and the Hawks get a sniper which they need to keep. Debrincat is the only other sniper on the team. The comps that you've provided are missing important pieces (in my mind). You say "At best he's a 1.5 year rental." OK, but the comp AA was a half year rental because EDM didn't think he was worth qualifying, but still gave up (2) 2nds for him.
As for the Copp comparison...I can appreciate the defensive play he brings. I'm VERY in favor of defensive forwards. Those guys do all the intangible things that free up the ice to allow the Ehlers of the world do what they do. This issue I have is that you claim Copp's production is better than Kubalik's. And if you try to cherry pick very specific stats...on away games...at night...and ONLY while the Hawks start the season off to a historically bad start... OK fine I can see those very cherry-picked stats and see Copp has 1 more goal and 7 more assists this season. I'd remind you that even while looking at Kubalik's worst season and comparing it to Copp's best season that Kubalik plays with Phillip Kurashev, Jujar Khaira, Kirby Dach, and Toews (you know the guy that just took a full year off to be on LTIR) the most while Copp plays with Ehlers, Scheifele, PLD, and Stastny as his 1-4 most linemates 5v5. Again, Copp is a good player and I would be happy if he joined the Hawks in the offseason, but let's not kid each other when it comes to production.
I don’t think I said vesalainen is better than nylander, but I’m not re reading what I wrote 😂. Too much work and I’m on holidays lol. If the problem comes down to Vesalainen, then the jets can’t match an offer of 2 actual 2nds so it would have to be another prospect. If you don’t like Vesalainen, it’s a fair point.
I appreciate the conversation as well, good hockey conversations are always good. When talking about trade value, it doesn’t matter what contract the hawks can or should sign him to, unless they plan on keeping him like the jets do copp. What matters in trade value is certainty and kubalik simply doesn’t have much in trade value.
Now, copp has played most of his career in the shutdown 3rd line role. That is why us production is low. It’s not that he never could produce, it’s that he doesn’t because the jets need him in a different role. Before last year, the jets had plenty of top 6 guys to score but needed their crucial shutdown line. Copp’s production there isn’t really showing that he isn’t capable of producing 50-60 pts a season nor that he produces less than kubalik. When playing in a top 6 role: kubalik avg: 55 pts (informing this year). Copp avg: 55 pts (only this year since it’s the first year he played top 6 consistently). What’s more important is that copp produced at a higher rate than kubalik in a mainly 3rd line shutdown/PP2 role last year. In each of their best years respectively. Also adding in the fact that copp has been adding offence to his game each year.
Therefore, copp produces at the same rate as kubalik and plays a high end defensive game to go along with it. Therefore, copp>Kubalik. Finally, I want to add that if the jets played copp in a top 6 role like kubalik (free to score as much as possible), copp would easily be at a pt/gm. But, that’s not what the jets need from him when their top 6 is relatively healthy. He was at above a point per game when the jets had scheifele and Wheeler out because the jets needed scoring more than defence then. Now they don’t. But that’s just a hypothesis.