And you accuse me of making up facts?
Show me one source that makes such a claim.

I believe Severson is every bit as good as Muzzin, plays the more-scarce right side, and is offered with retention.
The Muzzin comp is a fair one.



I was debunking the claim that I made up "Grundstrom was a top-5 prospect".
Current prospect lists will always appear more appealing or better than older prospect lists.
If you want to use where the prospects ranked overall (vs all NHL prospects), be my guest.
You'll get the same type of result.

Some leafs fans are acting like Amirov, Knies, Robertson and Niemela are top-10, top-20 guys. They aren't.
They are good. Top-50 to top-100 guys.
Robertson shows up on a few lists a little higher (20s or 30s).
And I am not as high on Amirov.
Which is how I ended up with Knies, Niemela and 1st.

Retention gets you an extra guy like abramov or at best hirvonen. It doesnt upgrade you from a guy like abramov to knies.
Prospects looking worse later doesnt devalue what they are worth now, because you are paying for potential and these guys have more potential than the others did back then so their value is higher.

And handesness, at best, makes up for severson not being as good.
Throw in that the leafs needed muzzin way more than they currently need severson and it lowers their price

Niemela was the top defenceman at the world Juniors

I am saying prospects at the time.

Grundstrom in 2018 vs Knies in 2022. Not Grunstrom in 2022 vs Knies in 2022.
Durzi in 2018 vs Niemela in 2022. Not Durzi in 2022 vs Niemela in 2022.

So am i, knies + niemela in 2022 >>> Grundstrom + durzi in 2018

Judging by the way Leaf and Prospect observers talked in 2018, I would disagree.
Where would you put these two prospects overall? Among all NHL prospects? Top-10, top-20, etc

What does that have to do with anything? Durzi and Grundstrom were nowhere near that valued

It is convenient for leaf’s fans now to say those two were nothing prospects. I guess it’s the easiest argument to pay nothing on Severson (or Holl plus 2nd plus AHLer, which is the most common trade).

But the fact remains, Durzi and Grundstrom, like it or not, were two of your top-5 guys then. Leaf fans and media thought very highly of them. And viewed them similarly to how Knies and Niemela are described today.

I do not believe that Durzi was a top 5 prospect, Grundstrom yes, Durzi no. The links that you showed, most did not have Durzi in the top 5. Also one of the links was simply "5 prospects to watch" not really a ranking (I dont have an Athletic subscription, so if they have him top 5, my apologies i cant see that)

Overall I would agree that the potential for Knies and Niemela top Dman at world juniors, is greater than what Grundstrom and Durzi were at the time of that trade

It is convenient for leaf’s fans now to say those two were nothing prospects. I guess it’s the easiest argument to pay nothing on Severson (or Holl plus 2nd plus AHLer, which is the most common trade).

But the fact remains, Durzi and Grundstrom, like it or not, were two of your top-5 guys then. Leaf fans and media thought very highly of them. And viewed them similarly to how Knies and Niemela are described today.

Thats it? Thats all you got?
Ryan Poehling and Casey Mittelstadt were WJC MVPs....
Brandon Gormley was once best d-man.

A few years ago, it was "Durzi was best d-man at Memorial Cup"

Ah the old chirp the guy you want to mask how badly you want the best possible return. Transparent

Who said they were nothing prospects? Why do uou feel thr need to put words in people3 mouths to justify your point?
They simply arnt as good as knies and topi, it is in fact just that simple, if the leafs had all 4 prospect in 2018 and the current guys were ad good as they are now, they would be a clear cut above the other two.
Prospect rankings are not static and top 5 isnt a blanket ranking of value simply because you want them in a trade

I'd want highest return for any trade. Not trying to hide that.
But my preference is that we re-sign him.

Ok, you want a muzzin value package? You get a 1st, hirovinen and villeneuve. For the cost of retention you can upgrade either prospect to voit or add abramov


People that offer the Mac Hollowells and Pontus Holmbergs of the world saying they are on par with Durzi/Grundstrom (from 2018).


Jared, BanMe...no one wants to go in cicrcles here. If you have a better idea, post it. Otherwise, I think you all know where I stand here.

Ok, you want a muzzin value package? You get a 1st, hirovinen and villeneuve. For the cost of retention you can upgrade either prospect to voit or add abramov

I'd rather see a lesser pick value come back.

One of - Knies, Niemela, Robertson
One of - Amirov, Miettinen, Abruzzese
One of - 2022 2nd or 2023 2nd pick
One of - 2022 3rd or 2023 3rd pick
One of - Holl, Dermont, Ritchie+, etc (if Leafs need space)

Add a lesser prospect or 2nd/3rd rounder for the retention if its needed.

Something like that.