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(ANA/VGK) - Kesler, Moore for Dadonov and 2nd Round Pick [REVERSED]

Who won the trade?
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Mar. 22 at 6:24 p.m.
#51
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Quoting: TheBoyDuddus
BLOws my mind that the finger was originally being pointed at Dorion. I'm going to assume that Dorion did pass the list on if it was required but has anyone confirmed that the onus is one him to provide the lsit and not on Vegas to ask the required questions before completing a transaction?

Obviously Vegas is still a new franchise but theyre held in very high regard so wrapping my head around the fact that they had Dadonov for 8 months and never bothered to check in on the M-NTC is mind-boggling.


I'm not directly asking you but just making a point about an organization like Vegas (especially being new to the league) that the do-dilligience would be at max level regarding trade clauses of any kind.

A GM of one team should not be relying on another GM for these things, as far as anyone is concerned they are competitors and the onus should be on the GM trading for the player(s) to make sure everything is in order.

This Vegas organization seems to look like a clown show right now.
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Mar. 22 at 7:58 p.m.
#52
addicted to sufferin
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Vegas Golden Knights 1000% clown show of an organization.

Trying to blame Ottawa for not sending his his NTC to Vegas is irrelevant.
Hes not in Ottawa anymore, hes in Vegas.

Why would your trade for a player and not ask about his NTC? Do your own homework.
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Mar. 22 at 9:20 p.m.
#53
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Quoting: TheBoyDuddus
BLOws my mind that the finger was originally being pointed at Dorion. I'm going to assume that Dorion did pass the list on if it was required but has anyone confirmed that the onus is one him to provide the lsit and not on Vegas to ask the required questions before completing a transaction?

Obviously Vegas is still a new franchise but theyre held in very high regard so wrapping my head around the fact that they had Dadonov for 8 months and never bothered to check in on the M-NTC is mind-boggling.
tbf i'm just going based off of what I heard Elliotte Friedman report, which is that both Vegas and the league front office were led to believe that Dadonov either didn't have a M-NTC or that his agent hadn't filed the paperwork on time to fulfill the M-NTC. the most recent tweet on this is here:



the thing is, as well, is that, mindbogglingly enough, there's no central registry for trade clauses, and it's a team-to-team thing, which means that both the league and Vegas had to rely upon Ottawa to report the existence of a trade clause. it depends on what happened during that initial trade call between Ottawa and Vegas:
- if no question was explicitly asked, and everybody just assumed Dadonov didn't have any trade clauses, that falls on both the league FO and Vegas for not doing their due diligence.
- but if Pierre Dorion was explicitly asked about a trade clause for Dadonov and he said no, either out of malice or neglect, that's really bad for Ottawa.
Mar. 22 at 9:29 p.m.
#54
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Quoting: Trickster
Vegas Golden Knights 1000% clown show of an organization.

Trying to blame Ottawa for not sending his his NTC to Vegas is irrelevant.
Hes not in Ottawa anymore, hes in Vegas.

Why would your trade for a player and not ask about his NTC? Do your own homework.
Honestly, I'ma say the NHL front office is 1000% a clown shoes organization.

No central registry for trade clauses?! Are you kidding me? That's an incredibly simple thing to keep track of, considering how much information NHL Central Registry already has to track of. If CapFriendly can do it, NHL Central Registry can, too!
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Mar. 22 at 10:39 p.m.
#55
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Voted for Anaheim for the sheer fact that Vegas didn't do due diligence for Dadonov's 10-Team NTC. Any team that doesn't do their due diligence are clear losers. What the F*** is going on in Vegas right now? Also, the Ducks just find a way to be competitive while rebuilding. I gotta say, I'm a fan.
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Mar. 22 at 10:41 p.m.
#56
Esquire
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Quoting: DragonRaptorHybrid
Honestly, I'ma say the NHL front office is 1000% a clown shoes organization.

No central registry for trade clauses?! Are you kidding me? That's an incredibly simple thing to keep track of, considering how much information NHL Central Registry already has to track of. If CapFriendly can do it, NHL Central Registry can, too!


I am 1000% interested in Contract law and working for a NHL legal team and/or Front office and I would like to know if the 10 team NTC is a year by year thing, or if the 10-team list is due at the signing of the contract and is not allowed to change, because if it is the latter then this trade will most likely be reversed.
Mar. 22 at 10:58 p.m.
#57
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Quoting: TheBoyDuddus
Word is that the deal is likely going to be voided.


I thought if a team traded for a player, they didn’t have to honor his no-trade clause after that.

I heard that the NHLPA is looking into it. That makes sense since they are there to protect the players, but are they doing this on their own initiative, or did Dadonov ask them to? It seems to me that it should be up to Dadonov to file a grievance, otherwise the trade should stand. That being said, if Vegas ignored his no-trade list, even if they did so unintentionally, they should be punished for that. That’s a bad faith move.
Mar. 22 at 11:02 p.m.
#58
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So if this trade is voided and their current players on LTIR become healthy enough to play what can Vegas do? Can they stay on LTIR? Dadanov can't be traded now until the season is over. Can he be waived? Could Anaheim then just claim him?
Mar. 22 at 11:29 p.m.
#59
ovechtrick
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inb4 this trade gets taken down
Mar. 23 at 12:23 a.m.
#60
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Quoting: syfygy
So if this trade is voided and their current players on LTIR become healthy enough to play what can Vegas do? Can they stay on LTIR? Dadanov can't be traded now until the season is over. Can he be waived? Could Anaheim then just claim him?


Quoting: syfygy
So if this trade is voided and their current players on LTIR become healthy enough to play what can Vegas do? Can they stay on LTIR? Dadanov can't be traded now until the season is over. Can he be waived? Could Anaheim then just claim him?


Let's say the trade is void and Vegas has to get rid of 5m in cap. They could trade 5m Reilly Smith now. Trades can still be made. But a player can't play any games with his new team.
So UFA Reilly gets traded to a team with a sweetener added by Vegas.
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Mar. 23 at 12:37 a.m.
#61
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Close but not quite, unless I’m wrong, but my understanding is that if a player is traded post deadline, they can still play the remainder of the reg season, they just can’t play in any post season games.
Mar. 23 at 12:51 a.m.
#62
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Will Knights GM still have a job after his team misses the playoffs?
Mar. 23 at 1:13 a.m.
#63
Josies on vacation
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Quoting: Brian2016
Will Knights GM still have a job after his team misses the playoffs?


Probably as nobody wants to cleanup his mess.

Like how do you fix them.

Probs will make the injury riddled season excuse and give him one more chance.
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Mar. 23 at 1:39 a.m.
#64
Go Habs Go
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Quoting: AtlanticCityZack
I am 1000% interested in Contract law and working for a NHL legal team and/or Front office and I would like to know if the 10 team NTC is a year by year thing, or if the 10-team list is due at the signing of the contract and is not allowed to change, because if it is the latter then this trade will most likely be reversed.


The player is required to submit the relevant list by a certain date and time on a periodic basis. It seems that can be scheduled for the off season (Dadonov) and/or around the trade deadline (Giroux).

I believe these are also separate agreements signed alongside a player contract. Which could explain how it was missed by both Vegas and the registry.

While it is probably possible to have a single trade list for your entire contract, there's no real reason for team or player to restrict themselves in that fashion.
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Mar. 23 at 8:56 a.m.
#65
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Quoting: AtlanticCityZack
I am 1000% interested in Contract law and working for a NHL legal team and/or Front office and I would like to know if the 10 team NTC is a year by year thing, or if the 10-team list is due at the signing of the contract and is not allowed to change, because if it is the latter then this trade will most likely be reversed.


I'd be curious how this works too because I recall Michael Russo reporting at one point in time a Wild GM (Guerin or Fenton, I forget who) asking player's agents for updated NTCs so the way he reported it sounded like they could change but maybe those contracts allowed the players to change their NTC year to year?
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Mar. 23 at 9:34 a.m.
#66
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Quoting: jr400
I thought if a team traded for a player, they didn’t have to honor his no-trade clause after that.

I heard that the NHLPA is looking into it. That makes sense since they are there to protect the players, but are they doing this on their own initiative, or did Dadonov ask them to? It seems to me that it should be up to Dadonov to file a grievance, otherwise the trade should stand. That being said, if Vegas ignored his no-trade list, even if they did so unintentionally, they should be punished for that. That’s a bad faith move.


This comes from the CapFriendly FAQ section on the CBA, and applies to NMCs and NTCs:

- The clause can travel with the player even if he consents to being traded or is claimed on waivers
-- This requires that the acquiring team sign an addendum to the contract ensuring that the clause does in fact travel with the player (written by the player's agent)
-- If the acquiring team refuses to sign the addendum, and the player waives his clause anyway, at that point the clause may be nullified
- If the player is traded before the clause takes effect, the acquiring team can opt to void the clause

Seems to me that the issue is with the last bullet point - specifically, whether or not Dadonov's M-NTC was in effect prior to being traded to Vegas by Ottawa. If it was, there may also be an issue with the first bullet point - did Dadonov and Vegas sign an addendum stating that his M-NTC would carry over? I'm not an expert in this, so I might be wrong, but this is how I see it. Will be interesting to see how it plays out as this may set a precedence for the league going forward.

Hope this helps!
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Mar. 23 at 10:34 a.m.
#67
More Finns More Wins
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And it's gone from the trade page.

What a mess.
Mar. 23 at 12:16 p.m.
#68
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Quoting: anelson115
This comes from the CapFriendly FAQ section on the CBA, and applies to NMCs and NTCs:

- The clause can travel with the player even if he consents to being traded or is claimed on waivers
-- This requires that the acquiring team sign an addendum to the contract ensuring that the clause does in fact travel with the player (written by the player's agent)
-- If the acquiring team refuses to sign the addendum, and the player waives his clause anyway, at that point the clause may be nullified
- If the player is traded before the clause takes effect, the acquiring team can opt to void the clause

Seems to me that the issue is with the last bullet point - specifically, whether or not Dadonov's M-NTC was in effect prior to being traded to Vegas by Ottawa. If it was, there may also be an issue with the first bullet point - did Dadonov and Vegas sign an addendum stating that his M-NTC would carry over? I'm not an expert in this, so I might be wrong, but this is how I see it. Will be interesting to see how it plays out as this may set a precedence for the league going forward.

Hope this helps!


That is helpful. Thanks.

Looking at Dadonov’s contract details, CapFriendly says the no-trade clause applied to all three years of the contract, so the clause was in effect when he was traded to Vegas. That rules out the last bullet point and takes us to the first point. The question is what happened, or what should have happened, when he became Vegas property. It sounds like Vegas would have had to sign the addendum for his no-trade clause to continue to apply. I don’t know if they signed it, but you’d think they’d know if they did, so let’s assume they didn’t. In that case, it’s not clear to me from this FAQ what would happen. It says, “if the acquiring team refuses to sign the addendum, and the player waives his clause anyway, at that point the clause may be nullified.” However, if Vegas wasn’t on Dadonov’s no-trade list, he could have been traded without waiving the clause – Ottawa did not need his consent to trade him to a team that wasn’t on the no-trade list. So if he didn’t waive the clause, does that mean it wouldn’t be nullified even if Vegas never signed the addendum?

I just noticed that CapFriendly is now showing Dadonov back on Vegas, so I guess the trade has been nullified. That must mean that Dadonov’s no-trade clause was still in effect, and Anaheim was on his no-trade list. I guess either Vegas forgot they signed the addendum, or they didn’t sign it, but the answer to the question in the last sentence of the paragraph above is yes, and Vegas didn’t know that the clause would still be in effect if he didn’t have to waive it to be traded from Ottawa to Vegas. (I’m giving them the benefit of a doubt and assuming this was an honest mistake, and not a deliberate attempt to try to trade a player to a team on his no-trade list.)

As my high school physics teacher used to say, now that you’re thoroughly confused, carry on.
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Mar. 23 at 3:41 p.m.
#69
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Quoting: TheBoyDuddus
Word is that the deal is likely going to be voided.


Yeah, it's too bad really, as Vebeek seems like the only party involved in this (other than Dadonov), that didn't really make any mistake, but realistically they will lose out gaining a player for free along with a pick. What a weird set of circumstances. I've read a bunch of different explanations as to how this happened, all of them are ridiculous when you consider the context of this being how organizations worth hundreds of millions of dollars operating in a multi-billion dollar league could have such poor oversight when allowing this trade to be originally approved.
Mar. 23 at 4:24 p.m.
#70
addicted to sufferin
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I say force Vegas to give up the 2nd rounder anyway and give them a cap penalty for next season on top.
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Mar. 23 at 7:32 p.m.
#71
Minnesota Wild
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Edited Mar. 24 at 1:56 a.m.
Quoting: JayTea
I'd be curious how this works too because I recall Michael Russo reporting at one point in time a Wild GM (Guerin or Fenton, I forget who) asking player's agents for updated NTCs so the way he reported it sounded like they could change but maybe those contracts allowed the players to change their NTC year to year?


They are allowed to change it year to year. Here's a quote from Russo immediately after the Staal trade in 2020:

Quoting: Russo
The day before, Staal was on the golf course, finished playing 18 holes with a few teammates and sprinted home to get on the phone with his agent so he could rework his annual 10-team no-trade list in time for Tuesday’s league deadline.

When Staal ultimately submitted his list, the Buffalo Sabres weren’t on it.

Twenty-four hours later, Staal was on the Sabres.


Source

@AtlanticCityZack this should answer your question too.
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Mar. 23 at 10:29 p.m.
#72
Josies on vacation
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69rsln.jpg

Thanks Vegas for inspiring my new creation

Strike 1: Fleury finding out via twitter he got traded
Strike 2: Not keeping up with the M-NTC that Ottawa gave Dadonov and forgetting all about it and making an excuse
Strike 3: Havent been in the league for more than 5 years and may already be blacklisted on most free agents desired places to go.
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Mar. 24 at 12:23 p.m.
#73
mokumboi
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Quoting: DragonRaptorHybrid
tbf i'm just going based off of what I heard Elliotte Friedman report, which is that both Vegas and the league front office were led to believe that Dadonov either didn't have a M-NTC or that his agent hadn't filed the paperwork on time to fulfill the M-NTC. the most recent tweet on this is here:



the thing is, as well, is that, mindbogglingly enough, there's no central registry for trade clauses, and it's a team-to-team thing, which means that both the league and Vegas had to rely upon Ottawa to report the existence of a trade clause. it depends on what happened during that initial trade call between Ottawa and Vegas:
- if no question was explicitly asked, and everybody just assumed Dadonov didn't have any trade clauses, that falls on both the league FO and Vegas for not doing their due diligence.
- but if Pierre Dorion was explicitly asked about a trade clause for Dadonov and he said no, either out of malice or neglect, that's really bad for Ottawa.




Uhh this is total "the dog ate my homework" nonsense that Vegas is CLAIMING. It's pathetic BS, nothing more.
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Mar. 24 at 12:24 p.m.
#74
mokumboi
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Quoting: Trickster
I say force Vegas to give up the 2nd rounder anyway and give them a cap penalty for next season on top.


Yep. Of course that will never happen because the league office has their head up Vegas' butt.
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Mar. 24 at 4:05 p.m.
#75
First NY Then LA
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Quoting: Trickster
I say force Vegas to give up the 2nd rounder anyway and give them a cap penalty for next season on top.


Quoting: mokumboi
Yep. Of course that will never happen because the league office has their head up Vegas' butt.


Forfeiting the pick is clearly the right penalty -- otherwise, Las Vegas could work the same exact deal with another club not on Dadonov's NTC ten-team-no-trade list and suffer no consequences for having created this mess. In my opinion, the NHL should immediately put a freeze on this draft pick pending a final determination.
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