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Poll

Created by: ReelBigFan
Team: 2022-23 Philadelphia Flyers
Initial Creation Date: May 20, 2022
Published: May 20, 2022
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Okay, so I made a team a few days ago and suggested Hayes to Boston (depending on what happens there) because I thought it would be a feel good story.

User CMcAvoy73, who we all probably have come in contact with at one point tried to say Hayes has negative value because he believes Hayes to be a power forward.

At first I thought it was a joke, but he seems serious enough to have insulted my intelligence for suggesting that he is a 2-way forward.

So take this poll.

Is Hayes, a man who averages under a hit a game, who has less than 200 PIMs in over 500 games, a man who has never had a single fight in his NHL career, a man who has more take aways than giveaways, a man who plays the PK, a man with a high Hockey IQ…. A power forward, or is he a 2-way forward
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DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2022
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2023
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Logo of the FLA
Logo of the NYR
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2024
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
19$81,500,000$67,713,583$295,000$2,387,500$13,786,417
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$7,000,000$7,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$5,875,000$5,875,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$2,500,000$2,500,000
LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$3,000,000$3,000,000
C, LW
UFA - 4
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$5,500,000$5,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 3
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$5,000,000$5,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 6
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$750,000$750,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$212,500$212K)
RW
RFA - 2
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$425,000$425K)
C, LW
RFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$7,750,000$7,750,000
C
NMC
UFA - 8
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$4,725,000$4,725,000
LD
UFA - 3
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$5,100,000$5,100,000
RD
UFA - 5
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$3,979,000$3,979,000
G
RFA - 2
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$4,675,000$4,675,000
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$883,750$883,750 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
RFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$175,000$175K)
G
UFA - 2
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$880,833$880,833 (Performance Bonus$725,000$725K)
LD/RD
RFA - 1
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$6,250,000$6,250,000
RD
UFA - 5
Logo of the Philadelphia Flyers
$775,000$775,000
LD/RD
UFA - 2

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May 20, 2022 at 8:43 a.m.
#1
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Just for the record, this doofus phrased this pretty inaccurately. Of course i believe Hayes has a bad contract, because everyone with a brain does. Its not because hes a power-forward. Thats relatively unrelated.

And bud, eloquent closing paragraph, but its fewer, not less.
May 20, 2022 at 8:49 a.m.
#2
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Just for the record, this doofus phrased this pretty inaccurately. Of course i believe Hayes has a bad contract, because everyone with a brain does. Its not because hes a power-forward. Thats relatively unrelated.

And bud, eloquent closing paragraph, but its fewer, not less.


Insulting my intelligence again, lol… Hayes contract for his age and production is fair. And you said power forwards numbers decrease after 30, which is true, true for a lot of positions… but you gave that as reasoning behind your belief why the contract is bad
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May 20, 2022 at 8:58 a.m.
#3
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I mean I guess it would depend on what ones definition of a PWF is vs a TWF. Aside from that, Kevin Hayes does have negative value as that contract is awful given what Hayes produces.
May 20, 2022 at 9:03 a.m.
#4
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Quoting: TheReboundKid
Is this a serious debate?
Went back and read the post you were talking about after seeing this. Just block Mac and move on. You both sound like children but Mac sounds like a kid with a mental disability. Obviously Hayes is a 2way.

Relax bro.

Edit: can’t believe I’ve been here this long without a post and my first post is telling people to chill


You’re right, been weeks of build up dealing with him, dude dragged me down
May 20, 2022 at 9:05 a.m.
#5
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Quoting: ReelBigFan
You’re right, been weeks of build up dealing with him, dude dragged me down


It’s all good man, just remember, in the legendary words of ELO “Don’t bring me down”
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May 20, 2022 at 9:14 a.m.
#6
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Quoting: ON3M4N
I mean I guess it would depend on what ones definition of a PWF is vs a TWF. Aside from that, Kevin Hayes does have negative value as that contract is awful given what Hayes produces.


A power forward would be a Lucic type and a 2-way would be a Bergeron type… not to the same extent of quality, but playing style.

And why would you say negative value? 7.1 For a 2C is pretty fair now. Especially for a 2-way guy putting up around .800 PPG imo
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May 20, 2022 at 9:34 a.m.
#7
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Quoting: TheReboundKid
Is this a serious debate?
Went back and read the post you were talking about after seeing this. Just block Mac and move on. You both sound like children but Mac sounds like a kid with a mental disability. Obviously Hayes is a 2way.

Relax bro.

Edit: can’t believe I’ve been here this long without a post and my first post is telling people to chill


I’ve been on this site since the off-season started but made an account just to vote. That CMcAvoy73 dude has made me embarrassed to be a Bruins fan at times.
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May 20, 2022 at 9:35 a.m.
#8
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Quoting: ImmaBender
I’ve been on this site since the off-season started but made an account just to vote. That CMcAvoy73 dude has made me embarrassed to be a Bruins fan at times.

Haha, if it helps, I’ve seen fans like that for every team, he is just a bit more stubborn
May 20, 2022 at 9:39 a.m.
#9
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Quoting: ReelBigFan
A power forward would be a Lucic type and a 2-way would be a Bergeron type… not to the same extent of quality, but playing style.

And why would you say negative value? 7.1 For a 2C is pretty fair now. Especially for a 2-way guy putting up around .800 PPG imo


Well then by the definition you've put, no Hayes wouldn't be a "power forward"

I'm not sure where you get Hayes being a 0.80 P/GP player. This past season he played at a 0.64 P/GP player. Over his last 3 years he's played at 0.59 P/GP and over the last 5 years he's played at a 0.63 P/GP rate. So he's around a 50pt center if he can play a full 82 games season. That's on the low end production for a 2C in my opinion and certainly not worth $7.1 million a year or roughly 9% of a team cap space.
May 20, 2022 at 9:58 a.m.
#10
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Quoting: ON3M4N
Well then by the definition you've put, no Hayes wouldn't be a "power forward"

I'm not sure where you get Hayes being a 0.80 P/GP player. This past season he played at a 0.64 P/GP player. Over his last 3 years he's played at 0.59 P/GP and over the last 5 years he's played at a 0.63 P/GP rate. So he's around a 50pt center if he can play a full 82 games season. That's on the low end production for a 2C in my opinion and certainly not worth $7.1 million a year or roughly 9% of a team cap space.


An, sorry, forgot my coffee this morning, I calculated the numbers with and without AV and used the medium rate… you’re right. But his numbers w/o AV have been great lol

Still a 50 point C who is versatile in this league currently is getting about this imo.. Coyle has a lower production but is a pretty good 2-way player, I think that’s why he got 6… in 2-3 years I see that being fair.

I still remember when Weber signed his deal and people thought 6M for a number 1 D was insane lol
May 20, 2022 at 10:00 a.m.
#11
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I know Boston is hurting for center depth especially if Bergy doesn't come back. Hayes is an interesting option but given his production in philly versus his cap there would have to be some retention from philly and likely not a lot in terms of value going back to them in the trade. so is hayes a cap dump or would philly want actual assets coming back in the trade? for the record when he was in NY i thought the Bruins should have tried to get him.
May 20, 2022 at 10:21 a.m.
#12
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Quoting: Burnsy613
I know Boston is hurting for center depth especially if Bergy doesn't come back. Hayes is an interesting option but given his production in philly versus his cap there would have to be some retention from philly and likely not a lot in terms of value going back to them in the trade. so is hayes a cap dump or would philly want actual assets coming back in the trade? for the record when he was in NY i thought the Bruins should have tried to get him.


Honestly, not sure. I’d assume if there way a Hayes deal in play, Boston would have moved Coyle or will likely move him… which that would probably be a cap dump. While Philly could also use a cap dump, Hayes brings a bit too much to the team for him to even be one of the top 5 pieces I’d assume Philly would move as a dump. His numbers took a hit, like all Flyers while under AV, but they managed to climb back up after…

A hypothetical deal would contain way to many questions on both sides involving this off-season… I imagine Hayes will most likely be having the C on his chest next year btw.
May 20, 2022 at 10:22 a.m.
#13
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Quoting: ReelBigFan
An, sorry, forgot my coffee this morning, I calculated the numbers with and without AV and used the medium rate… you’re right. But his numbers w/o AV have been great lol

Still a 50 point C who is versatile in this league currently is getting about this imo.. Coyle has a lower production but is a pretty good 2-way player, I think that’s why he got 6… in 2-3 years I see that being fair.

I still remember when Weber signed his deal and people thought 6M for a number 1 D was insane lol


Coyle got just over $5 million. He's played at a 40pt rate the last 3 years and as you said is a pretty good 2-way player. He's considered a cap dump by many on CF. So Hayes will give you about 10 more points (going on p/gp) and cost almost $2 million more.
May 20, 2022 at 11:19 a.m.
#14
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Quoting: ON3M4N
Coyle got just over $5 million. He's played at a 40pt rate the last 3 years and as you said is a pretty good 2-way player. He's considered a cap dump by many on CF. So Hayes will give you about 10 more points (going on p/gp) and cost almost $2 million more.


Seems about right, think Coyle will improve if given 2C next year?
May 20, 2022 at 11:20 a.m.
#15
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Quoting: CMcAvoy73
Just for the record, this doofus phrased this pretty inaccurately. Of course i believe Hayes has a bad contract, because everyone with a brain does. Its not because hes a power-forward. Thats relatively unrelated.

And bud, eloquent closing paragraph, but its fewer, not less.


7-1 2-way forward… remove our votes and it’s 6-0… can we end the debate now?
May 20, 2022 at 11:31 a.m.
#16
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Quoting: ReelBigFan
Seems about right, think Coyle will improve if given 2C next year?


Not sure what seems about right, but I certainly hope your not implying that an extra 10 points a year is worth $2 million more against your cap. As for Coyle, no I don't think he'll improve past anything more than he is now. Coyle could be a 2C on a bad team, but ideally he's a 3C on a cup contender.
May 20, 2022 at 11:46 a.m.
#17
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Quoting: ON3M4N
Not sure what seems about right, but I certainly hope your not implying that an extra 10 points a year is worth $2 million more against your cap. As for Coyle, no I don't think he'll improve past anything more than he is now. Coyle could be a 2C on a bad team, but ideally he's a 3C on a cup contender.

Points

Hayes production took a hit under AV, but before and after AV he has been solid putting very good numbers… earned the 7.1

Once he is given the 2C I think he will continue at the .800 pace but we shall see
May 20, 2022 at 11:50 a.m.
#18
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Quoting: ReelBigFan
Points

Hayes production took a hit under AV, but before and after AV he has been solid putting very good numbers… earned the 7.1

Once he is given the 2C I think he will continue at the .800 pace but we shall see



Ya no way in hell is an extra 10 points a year worth $2 million more a year.
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May 20, 2022 at 12:55 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: ON3M4N
Ya no way in hell is an extra 10 points a year worth $2 million more a year.


Agreed… just to put out the numbers, he had 9 points in 22 games with AV lol, and 22 points in 26 after AV (I think these are right but still need that coffee lol) really hoping those latter numbers can keep up next year
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May 20, 2022 at 4:36 p.m.
#20
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Yeah, Hayes is a two-way forward. Those aren't really mutually exclusive definitions though, you can be both.
You could call Matthew Tkachuk both a two-way or a power-forward imo. I'd say it's the same with Hayes.
May 20, 2022 at 4:50 p.m.
#21
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not voting in the poll hes a soft 2 way forward. i dont think his back checking ability is anything to write home about. hes not much of a power forward even though he and jimmy are both big individuals.

his contract is an overpay. last 3 years since being in philly he has 103 points in 172 games which equates to .6 points per game. thats a 49 point player.

to give you some perspective... craig smith has 99 in 197. 4 less points 25 more games. on pace for 8 less points a season... is more of an all around player although doesnt play center... and makes under half of what hayes does. the problem for philly fans is that they go hayes in an anomoly year. he has hit 50 points 1 time in his career and that was 18-19. hes had the pace for it. came close in 16-17. probably hits it in the last 3 years tbh but pace and actuals are completely different. 7.1m for a guys that straight up might not hit 50 points is SCARY contract wise. not only that you have him for 4 more years at that number.
May 20, 2022 at 4:54 p.m.
#22
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I've never quite understood the reasoning behind Hayes' contract being "negative value". Like all UFAs, you have to pay a premium to get them. 7.14M is a little pricey, but looking at what he's been for the Flyers, I don't think it's a "bad" deal. His first season with Philadelphia was great - solid 0.60 PPG, 20-goal scorer, and could run the PK/PP. He was consistent and solid contributer.

The next year was the COVID year and the entire team fell off. All the momentum from the 2019-2020 year was gone. This past year he was dealing with multiple injuries and surgeries. When he returned, he had like 21 points in 27 games under Yeo.

I get he's getting more than what he would in a vacuum, but it's not the worst deal in the league.
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May 20, 2022 at 5:08 p.m.
#23
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
I've never quite understood the reasoning behind Hayes' contract being "negative value". Like all UFAs, you have to pay a premium to get them. 7.14M is a little pricey, but looking at what he's been for the Flyers, I don't think it's a "bad" deal. His first season with Philadelphia was great - solid 0.60 PPG, 20-goal scorer, and could run the PK/PP. He was consistent and solid contributer.

The next year was the COVID year and the entire team fell off. All the momentum from the 2019-2020 year was gone. This past year he was dealing with multiple injuries and surgeries. When he returned, he had like 21 points in 27 games under Yeo.

I get he's getting more than what he would in a vacuum, but it's not the worst deal in the league.


in terms of what he brings on the ice his value isnt what his contract is paying him. its in the 5.75-6 range. hes about 1.2m-1.5m overpaid per year. which as you said isnt the worst. but realistically he is.

that being said he hit the market at the right time and capitalized. cant blame him for getting the contract. in a vacuum hypothetical stance... would you rather schenn at 6.5m signed through age 37 with a replacement winger? or hayes at 7.1 signed through 34 and frost/farabee? personally i take the better center in schenn and try and get a legit winger elsewhere.
May 20, 2022 at 5:11 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: Xertalz
Yeah, Hayes is a two-way forward. Those aren't really mutually exclusive definitions though, you can be both.
You could call Matthew Tkachuk both a two-way or a power-forward imo. I'd say it's the same with Hayes.


Of course not, AO is a power forward and a sniper… I just don’t see any power forward in Hayes other than being big and being forward… dude has thrown less punches than Crosby lol
May 20, 2022 at 5:16 p.m.
#25
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Quoting: hanson493
not voting in the poll hes a soft 2 way forward. i dont think his back checking ability is anything to write home about. hes not much of a power forward even though he and jimmy are both big individuals.

his contract is an overpay. last 3 years since being in philly he has 103 points in 172 games which equates to .6 points per game. thats a 49 point player.

to give you some perspective... craig smith has 99 in 197. 4 less points 25 more games. on pace for 8 less points a season... is more of an all around player although doesnt play center... and makes under half of what hayes does. the problem for philly fans is that they go hayes in an anomoly year. he has hit 50 points 1 time in his career and that was 18-19. hes had the pace for it. came close in 16-17. probably hits it in the last 3 years tbh but pace and actuals are completely different. 7.1m for a guys that straight up might not hit 50 points is SCARY contract wise. not only that you have him for 4 more years at that number.


The poll was just to show the one guy that the term power forward shouldn’t be used in the same sentence as Hayes, no need to vote

Hayes time in Philly is tough to evaluate because he played 3C, and mainly a defensive role. Under AV the entire team dropped in production, each player individually dropped between .100 and .400 ppg

For perspective, Hayes with AV this season had 9’pointa in 22 games, without him he had 22 points in 26 games, essentially the pace he had before he signed… I think next year is really the defining year for the contract
 
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