Thread on Hockey Canada’s new plan. Sorry it’s really long but please read.

— Brock McGillis He/Him (@brock_mcgillis) July 25, 2022

☝️This 👊

Well let’s follow this chain of events:

1 Demands are made that Hockey Canada must change

2 Hockey Canada starts the process of making these changes

3 The announcement of changes is clearly not good enough for the ones who demanded changes.

4 A million questions are thrown at those trying to make the changes without the questioner having any direction other than to complain

5 Complainant ends rant with a “Demand radical change” post and applauding “disrupters”.

So tell me, what’s this really all about? Hockey Canada is only beginning to make major changes yet these already aren’t good enough within minutes of their announcement. What’s the end goal here for these people? I’m left only the assumptions that the end goals are not very good ones.

I can only assume you didn't actually read the thread linked - or at most skimmed it and cherry-picked the "it's not good enough so what do they actually want" argument - because the answers to your questions are in that very thread.

Hockey Canada wants to adopt the Universal Code of Conduct? Great, they had one and this still happened for decades. Implementing a comprehensive tracking system for each and every complaint is an excellent start, but is it going to be headed by the same group that used a slush fund to silence victims? What good are computer- or presentation-based trainings if the message falls on deaf ears? The individuals perpetuating this culture in hockey do not care about the issues that consent training or toxic masculinity training would be addressing. Does the aforementioned specialist hired to review these trainings understand this? Why are only high-profile players being screened? This notion simply dismisses that anyone else associated with Hockey Canada cannot be an abuser while we know this to be false. Point six posits an excellent question: where's the accountability inherent to the system? This cannot be a matter of the blind leading the blind. Point 7 I think is semantics as I would hope that Hockey Canada has the wherewithal to include homophobia and racism under harassment.

The "disruptors" that McGillis refers to are those that speak up inside hockey. The Sheldon Kennedy's, the Dan Carcillo's, the Akim Aliu's, the Kyle Beach's of the hockey world. It is not a call to arms or a stampede of social justice activists. We need more people within the sport to affect change or the system will not change. Without a push from the fans, the managements, players, staff, all this matter becomes is a coat of paint overtop a morally dilapidated organization. We should be demanding a complete overturn. A top-to-bottom reconstruction of the policies and processes that keep those in and around hockey safe. Anything less is insufficient.

Show me one solution he gave in his rant? All he did was question and question. What do you people really want? Is it hard to be honest? Because people who want to solve problems don’t just ask a load of questions to the people who are trying to solve the problems and actually coming up with a plan.

Hockey Canada has started a plan and all I’m seeing from him and many of you on social media is whining. And now to you, what is “We should be demanding a complete overturn. A top-to-bottom reconstruction of the policies and processes that keep those in and around hockey safe. Anything less is insufficient” supposed to mean? As usual you said a lot but like the fine folks on Twitter all I see is a lot complaining. What is a complete overturn? What is a “top to bottom reconstruction of policies and procedures”?

Why is the plan that was released yesterday not an acceptable starting point? Because they stepped up and put together a line of attack in writing and all I see from the social media armchair “influencer” types is complaining to get themselves noticed.

Because the lack of follow-up and follow through done by those in Hockey Canada during these coverups is disturbing. THEY SHOULD NOT BE THE ONES MAKING THESE DECISIONS ON HOW TO MOVE FORWARD. There needs to be a complete overhaul starting at the highest level and down. There has been no accountability, there action plan is just more of the bull**** rhetoric by the current heads at Team Canada. It's rather unfortunate you missed the point of his thread but that's on you.

I’ve read their action plan. I’m a former WHL player. I’ve been a member of HC for years. I played in juniors with one player from the 2003 team who is being slandered right now on Twitter by the very people who you are holding up to be heroes. HC is throwing the kids on the 2018 team under the bus. They told Parliament that a majority of the players refused to cooperate with the third party investigator (Danielle Robitallie). She just told Parliament today that was a lie. She said 10 of 19 have talked to her and the others are waiting on London police to conclude the reopening of the case. Danielle Robitaille also said the complainant has not agreed to an interview with her and that’s holding up her investigation.

So we see HC willing to throw the young men from 2018 under the bus, we see the usual Twitter lynch mob ganging up on players (you seem to be a fan of that crap by sharing a post from one of them) and government officials who also are undermining these player’s ability to receive a fair trial if it comes to that. Justice is a two way street. It means finding out what happened and reaching just punishments if crimes were committed. It doesn’t make “I get what I want”.

If Hockey Canada is banned, there is nothing saying that the Athletes themselves can not play in events under another name. Kind of like Russia in the Olympics, although this is completely different what is being accused. I do agree hockey canada should be banned, but as an individual organization and not a statement on the country itself i am sure there will be some sort of way that the canadian athletes will play.

Did not want to engage with you, so that’s my mistake. Where did I say I want to gang up on anybody. Absolutely the players involved in these scandals need to be punished as well as those who covered it up. I guarantee this will not be the end.

Danielle Robitaille cited solicitor-client privilege in declining to answer some questions from MPs.I asked Robitaille following her testimony whether it's accurate to describe HH's investigation as "independent."She declined to answer.

— Rick Westhead (@rwesthead) July 26, 2022

You are correct, we have heard 3 DIFFERENT numbers from Hockey Canada about who participated in the investigation. How can you possibly believe anything that comes out from them. It’s ridiculous.

Jake Virtanen? or lets get even more public...Johnny Depp? Both of those people would support your argument. I think that we need leadership in these massive corporations who will make the right decisions and not immediately throw young people under the bus as well as they need to be able to recognize and get rid of people who have clearly broken the law and need to be held accountable. Can't remember names, but I think those with the group text are a good example of how to immediately take action and get rid of someone who has clearly broken the law.

I am also completely open to being wrong on this because I have not sat down and read through the claims made against either the 2018 or 2003 teams, i am not a Canadian and haven't payed much attention to this.

I don’t believe what they said. I just told you they are already stabbing players in the back. I am saying that the whiners aren’t very clear with what they want. And how are the players to be punished? By who and for what? Do you understand that they have not been even charged with any criminal activity? So what punishment and by who should the punishment be dolled out?

Virtanen is a great example of what happens when the Twitter lynch mobs go after a player and ruin his career. He went to court and now we see that he was an innocent young man. His career as an NHL player will still be over though and he has paid a massive price for simply being accused of wrongdoing

Do everyday people - specifically everyday people who criticize this action plan - also need to be those responsible for the solutions to this problem?

I personally believe that this isn't up to any one individual to solve: voices from Parliament, Sport Canada, and those within hockey but not internal to Hockey Canada are going to need to collaborate to find that solution. Allow me to clarify: what I do know in total absolution that the entire administrative entity of Hockey Canada needs to be sent packing. From the head honcho to the lowly beancounter. The cover-ups have existed for far too long (and supposedly in quantity: remember, at least one per year) to trust anyone who has been at the helm to enact change.

Akin to how people should vote in order to affect political change, I fully believe we need outcry from the masses to affect necessary change to Hockey Canada. Whatever trust had been built between the organization and the Nation is lost, why "trust the process" in the hands of bureaucrats? Also, why operate on divisive language? At its core, this case and any like it should not need to be politicized. Sexual assault in every form is wrong, plain and simple. This is not a liberal issue. It is not a conservative issue. Public outcry should be expected. Furthermore, social media offers a platform where people can get that point across. Mailing an MP is likely just as effective but one will spread awareness, one does not.

Bluntly, the plan Hockey Canada has released thus far is insufficient. Consider the Swiss Cheese model that the Alberta oilsands relies so heavily upon: for every layer of protection or every control in place, something is bound to slip through the cracks. In context of this model and in specific highlight of that Twitter thread, there remain many holes to prevent further instances of abuse outright.

I take issue when the focus on what remains important is lost. The slander of your teammates or other hockey players caught in the whirlwind is not even a tertiary concern of this case. The kids that may be affected by the outcomes of this case and what remains of Hockey Canada is an issue for step #800; we're on step #3. What matters first-and-foremost is that crimes have likely been committed and one of the most prominent hockey organizations in Canada has essentially been sponsoring these assaults via hush money. Names are unfortunately going to be needlessly drug through miles of mud by the populous. I understand the personal difficulties associated with cases like these but ultimately those innocent will be cleared if/when a guilty verdict is reached and those responsible are held accountable. On this forum at least, the entire moderation team and I are doing our damnedest to ensure that such speculation and slander is kept off these forums. This is not the place for baseless accusations.

I'd also like to point out that replies like these - in general, not calling you out @MatthewsFan - are not going to get us anywhere. This post comes from a place of antagonistic intent. All this kind of "us vs them" mentality will do is divide this community. I want every one of us to maintain the ability to have difficult conversations with each other. We need to be better if that goal is to be achieved.

Not a one of us are the same. We've walked too many an individual mile to agree on every exact point. Please remain objective and conduct yourselves well

Agreed, my bad.

I kinda regret starting this post

Why? There’s nothing wrong with talking about probably the biggest story in hockey right now. You just have to accept that everything you say is t universally agreed upon. Part of being an adult is accepting that people have different opinions and not losing your mind over it.

Re; Virtanen. Even though he's not guilty I don't entirely trust the verdict and it's a textbook example of a ton of sexual assault cases: wherein the lack of substantial evidence does not prove the act beyond a reasonable doubt. Hard to convict someone on hearsay and for the overall legal structure that's definitely for the best.

For what it's worth, I think it's one of the more admirable things any user could have done instead of having the moderators completely direct traffic on this topic. A lot of us are going to be uneasy with the topic as a whole. That part's normal. Means you're still very much human. What has happened surrounding the two juniors teams and Hockey Canada as a whole is nothing shy of a travesty.

Continue to have difficult conversations like these as often as you can. Challenge your beliefs. Every bit more that you're able to learn about yourself, your beliefs, and the world around you makes you a better individual.

The innocent verdict of the Virtanen trial points to a difficult lesson many of us never really stop learning: we - meaning society as a whole - get things wrong. This is why we have a justice system and people far wiser and more patient than us regular forum-goers to suss out the absolute truths.

There's difficulty and many complications surrounding morality regarding these cases: I believe we should believe everyone that speaks out about these abuses but with that comes consequences until a verdict proves someone innocent or guilty. It's difficult to reconcile sometimes. Innocent or guilty, an actual honest-to-God, living person is almost irreparably hurt by these cases. Defendant or accused. There is never a real winner in these scenarios.

“What matters first-and-foremost is that crimes have likely been committed…” yep that’s the exact thinking that led to Jake Virtanen becoming a villain and now we see how that ended…

The all or nothing approach to these sexual assault allegations really ticks me off… “believe all women” is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Are we to assume all women only tell the truth and no woman an ever lied? Are we to believe there’s something so wrong with young men who played hockey that we have to assume allegations are true and that they’re all guilty? What’s with the assumption that just because horrible allegations surface the young men are guilty?

Blasts HC all you want because they absolutely screwed up with using the registration fees to make their payoff pool of cash. Fire every higher up you want who came up with that slush fund… but for the love of god can we please let the facts play out and not say crimes were likely committed especially today with the Virtanen verdict showing us why that’s a dangerous road to go down?

You don’t entirely trust the verdict? If the court can’t deliver justice then who can?

I am under no illusions that everyone has to think like me, I believe it is heathy to have a difference of opinion to have a positive effective change in the world.

I do take expectation from yourself and the Habs fan(who went on a massive tangent) being so aggressive and has the feel like you are just trying to pick a fight.

Maybe choose your words differently, I realize in my last post I should have also.

I'll stop commenting on this

I'll echo @Mondo: these cases can be very easily turned over and even dismissed. Statistically, so very many of these cases never even see court due to hassles regarding even something as simple as reporting the act. But I've already conceded that yes, the mob gets things wrong on occasion. That's why they function as none of judge, jury, or executioner.



It seems odd that you can pivot on a dime and go from a place of genuine rationality to "believe all women" pisses me off. Are we then to assume that people (because it's not just women) always lie when they are sexually assaulted? Are we to only convict the cases where there exists video evidence or witness(es)? What moral instrument allows you to pick and choose, to isolate which cases are to be believed and which are to be dismissed? I choose to believe those who report their assaults because of how many go unreported. I won't petition you change your stance on this, but note that it's merely a highly personal decision and it will influence my position on this.

Recognize your own words: the mob is not a villain in this case. Not everything the mob believes is either universally agreed upon nor universally true. Your Twitter feed does not speak for the global consensus, all social media really offers is an echo chamber as they're personalized to every user. Ethically and morally, I don't believe there's a solution to who you do and don't believe until a truth serum is invented. Until then, swaths of people external to the case are going to get these cases wrong. It's an inevitable consequentiality.

I have no idea who the Habs fan is but I have no intentions of “picking a fight”. I only get a little heated when I see the players slandered simply because I actually know one personally who I played with in juniors who was part of the 2003 team. Like any human if someone who considered a friend is attacked by people you can be defensive

Should've read beyond those words. In a lot of sexual assault cases the only witnesses are the victim and perpetrator, Without any further substantial evidence to enforce the victim's claims of assault, it leads the decision based on hearsay where often boils down to whose account the jury trusts more. The law generally convicts guilty based on beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime occurred and with limited evidence this makes it very hard to side with the victim.

So no, I don't think Virtanen is innocent and I'm allowed to believe that, just as you're allowed to believe he is completely innocent because he did not get convicted. The court system is not foolproof and often favors the richer/powerful.

EDIT: Should also add on that the "Twitter Mob" didn't go "after" Virtanen until he was charged. If anything you should be more upset at the time for suspending him and buying him out.

Just so I can make this perfectly clear, I am not attacking any junior teams. I am extremely pissed and angry at hockey Canada and the culture in hockey that has let this go on for far too long. That is what I want charged.

Let's look at how gang sexual violence has been treated in hockey over the last few decades.... This is a limited scope of examples, but will show the Hockey Canada assault is not isolated.TW / / SAa thread🧵🧵🧵

— Ian Kennedy (@IanKennedyCK) July 22, 2022

Is there sexual violence in other sports, yes. But hockey is the sport I love, tried to play, and has a major issues that needs to be addressed

“Are we then to assume that people (because it's not just women) always lie when they are sexually assaulted? “

No that would be ridiculous.

“Are we to only convict the cases where there exists video evidence or witness(es)“

Most of the accusations don’t involve any witnesses or video so that really can’t work.

“What moral instrument allows you to pick and choose, to isolate which cases are to be believed and which are to be dismissed?“

My stance is always the same, let it play out in the courts if that’s where it ends up. I get worried when I see people saying they don’t trust a verdict because it went the opposite way they seemingly were rooting for. I also find it weird anyone would be rooting for a particular verdict in these kind of cases where we will likely never know 100% for sure what happened.

“all social media really offers is an echo chamber as they're personalized to every user.”

Very true and to me that’s what makes it so dangerous especially for the younger generation that had grown up online. It’s all a confirmation of their biases but it’s very easy to blend that into “these are the facts”. I’m working on that right now with my own kids. The oldest is 13 and I’m trying to teach him these “influencers” aren’t heroes