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Team Canada Scandal

Jul. 26, 2022 at 3:43 p.m.
#51
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Quoting: mondo
Should've read beyond those words. In a lot of sexual assault cases the only witnesses are the victim and perpetrator, Without any further substantial evidence to enforce the victim's claims of assault, it leads the decision based on hearsay where often boils down to whose account the jury trusts more. The law generally convicts guilty based on beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime occurred and with limited evidence this makes it very hard to side with the victim.

So no, I don't think Virtanen is innocent and I'm allowed to believe that, just as you're allowed to believe he is completely innocent because he did not get convicted. The court system is not foolproof and often favors the richer/powerful.

EDIT: Should also add on that the "Twitter Mob" didn't go "after" Virtanen until he was charged. If anything you should be more upset at the time for suspending him and buying him out.


We don’t have any higher power to determine whether or not a crime has been committed than a court. That’s all I was saying. We don’t have to like a verdict but it is the verdict. A lot of people were ticked off down in the states when OJ Simpson was found not guilty. I was 15 at the time so the law as a whole wasn’t my expertise but looking back on it the verdict was what it was and it can’t be there to make everyone happy
Jul. 26, 2022 at 3:45 p.m.
#52
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Quoting: MikeKeenanHatesMe
“Are we then to assume that people (because it's not just women) always lie when they are sexually assaulted? “

No that would be ridiculous.

“Are we to only convict the cases where there exists video evidence or witness(es)“

Most of the accusations don’t involve any witnesses or video so that really can’t work.

“What moral instrument allows you to pick and choose, to isolate which cases are to be believed and which are to be dismissed?“

My stance is always the same, let it play out in the courts if that’s where it ends up. I get worried when I see people saying they don’t trust a verdict because it went the opposite way they seemingly were rooting for. I also find it weird anyone would be rooting for a particular verdict in these kind of cases where we will likely never know 100% for sure what happened.

“all social media really offers is an echo chamber as they're personalized to every user.”

Very true and to me that’s what makes it so dangerous especially for the younger generation that had grown up online. It’s all a confirmation of their biases but it’s very easy to blend that into “these are the facts”. I’m working on that right now with my own kids. The oldest is 13 and I’m trying to teach him these “influencers” aren’t heroes


I think you need to take @Mondo's second response in much stronger heed:

Quoting: mondo
Should've read beyond those words. In a lot of sexual assault cases the only witnesses are the victim and perpetrator, Without any further substantial evidence to enforce the victim's claims of assault, it leads the decision based on hearsay where often boils down to whose account the jury trusts more. The law generally convicts guilty based on beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime occurred and with limited evidence this makes it very hard to side with the victim.

So no, I don't think Virtanen is innocent and I'm allowed to believe that, just as you're allowed to believe he is completely innocent because he did not get convicted. The court system is not foolproof and often favors the richer/powerful.

EDIT: Should also add on that the "Twitter Mob" didn't go "after" Virtanen until he was charged. If anything you should be more upset at the time for suspending him and buying him out.


I don't believe he was rooting for a guilty verdict, this is merely a very objective look at how the justice system operates in these cases. EDIT: I also believe at the very least questioning the basis of the system and understanding the how and why a verdict was reached is a topic worth anyone's attention. Those systems are accountable to the masses. The slurry of legalese has kept a lot of that under the veil for a while so anything to further the understanding of a layperson is a plus in my opinion.

Ultimately, I think the three of us have beat this portion of the topic into submission and I think we agree to an extent, at least around the function and semantics of the legal mechanisms at work here.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 3:48 p.m.
#53
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Quoting: mondo
Re; Virtanen. Even though he's not guilty I don't entirely trust the verdict and it's a textbook example of a ton of sexual assault cases: wherein the lack of substantial evidence does not prove the act beyond a reasonable doubt. Hard to convict someone on hearsay and for the overall legal structure that's definitely for the best.


Yep, unfortunately, sex assault cases are typically brought to light years after they allegedly took place...lack of evidence is typically the result
Jul. 26, 2022 at 5:22 p.m.
#54
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
Just so I can make this perfectly clear, I am not attacking any junior teams. I am extremely pissed and angry at hockey Canada and the culture in hockey that has let this go on for far too long. That is what I want charged.





Is there sexual violence in other sports, yes. But hockey is the sport I love, tried to play, and has a major issues that needs to be addressed


Ok so that guy is about as bad as these Twitter people get and he has built a name for himself by dragging people’s names through the mud and brining up long settled cases like he did in that post with Ed Jovanowski. Those “reporters” like him are the ones who do a lot of damage to the reputation of hockey players by taking everything out of context to spin a narrative. Every incident he mentioned up until the 2015 conviction of those USHL players resulted in no charges or dropped charges. Why bring all that up? You may think he’s doing it for purist reasons but if that was the case he wouldn’t be dragging old stories from decades ago that were settled by the courts. He and others like him have built careers off this new genre of media, the reporter that wants to be the story rather than report it
Jul. 26, 2022 at 5:30 p.m.
#55
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
If Hockey Canada is banned, there is nothing saying that the Athletes themselves can not play in events under another name. Kind of like Russia in the Olympics, although this is completely different what is being accused. I do agree hockey canada should be banned, but as an individual organization and not a statement on the country itself i am sure there will be some sort of way that the canadian athletes will play.


Exactly what I was attempting to say, don’t punish the players, punish the adults in Hockey Canada. You put forward a good solution
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:05 p.m.
#56
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Quoting: OldHabsFan61
Exactly what I was attempting to say, don’t punish the players, punish the adults in Hockey Canada. You put forward a good solution


Why prioritize this ideology over anything else associated with the Hockey Canada case though? Why should ensuring participation at future events be paramount? I've thought hard on our exchange and I still can't reconcile how you've reached the conclusion that making sure kids completely detached from the situation are made center-stage to addressing the allegations towards Hockey Canada.

Ultimately I believe you're getting your wish: the continuation of the development camps and no developments on either the Hlinka or resumption of the WJC U20s in Edmonton suggest that Hockey Canada is at the very least not privy to an immediate ban. I'm just absolutely vexed as to why this outcome was so important that it takes such precedence over every other facet of the case.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:38 p.m.
#57
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Why prioritize this ideology over anything else associated with the Hockey Canada case though? Why should ensuring participation at future events be paramount? I've thought hard on our exchange and I still can't reconcile how you've reached the conclusion that making sure kids completely detached from the situation are made center-stage to addressing the allegations towards Hockey Canada.

Ultimately I believe you're getting your wish: the continuation of the development camps and no developments on either the Hlinka or resumption of the WJC U20s in Edmonton suggest that Hockey Canada is at the very least not privy to an immediate ban. I'm just absolutely vexed as to why this outcome was so important that it takes such precedence over every other facet of the case.


I didn’t really want to say much more to you after your last rebuttal to me but I guess I will now. Ending junior hockey tournaments isn’t a solution to stopping sexual assaults. It’s really that simple. There’s no improvements made by not playing hockey.
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:45 p.m.
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Quoting: OldHabsFan61
I didn’t really want to say much more to you after your last rebuttal to me but I guess I will now. Ending junior hockey tournaments isn’t a solution to stopping sexual assaults. It’s really that simple. There’s no improvements made by not playing hockey.


Except by strangling the Hockey Canada front offices by cutting out their largest revenue streams.

Until we know the exact mechanism that's going to force the complete overhaul of the HC front office - a point that I believe everyone witnessing the fallout of these allegations agrees needs to happen - I don't understand why you would take one of the most effective options off the table.

I've mentioned it a few times in this thread since our initial exchange but nobody comes out of this a winner. Losing the key sponsors was a good first step but having Hockey Canada continue to ice teams at sanctioned events and bring in profits while this saga continues in the courts feels incredibly greasy to me.

I do agree that not playing doesn't actually stop the assaults but that takes a very narrow view on the entire situation. Zoom out. Not playing has bigger effects on those that should be ousted.
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:51 p.m.
#59
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Why prioritize this ideology over anything else associated with the Hockey Canada case though? Why should ensuring participation at future events be paramount? I've thought hard on our exchange and I still can't reconcile how you've reached the conclusion that making sure kids completely detached from the situation are made center-stage to addressing the allegations towards Hockey Canada.

Ultimately I believe you're getting your wish: the continuation of the development camps and no developments on either the Hlinka or resumption of the WJC U20s in Edmonton suggest that Hockey Canada is at the very least not privy to an immediate ban. I'm just absolutely vexed as to why this outcome was so important that it takes such precedence over every other facet of the case.


Well here is an example. Capfriendly is involved with a scandal, all the 42000 individual users are way more important than Capfriendly. So that is why people are worried about the 360k Canadian hockey players last year and not the organization as a whole, and the 600-700k every year before that. I am sure that if capfriendly was to be banned from Google they also wouldn't ban the 42000 users as well.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:57 p.m.
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Except by strangling the Hockey Canada front offices by cutting out their largest revenue streams.

Until we know the exact mechanism that's going to force the complete overhaul of the HC front office - a point that I believe everyone witnessing the fallout of these allegations agrees needs to happen - I don't understand why you would take one of the most effective options off the table.

I've mentioned it a few times in this thread since our initial exchange but nobody comes out of this a winner. Losing the key sponsors was a good first step but having Hockey Canada continue to ice teams at sanctioned events and bring in profits while this saga continues in the courts feels incredibly greasy to me.

I do agree that not playing doesn't actually stop the assaults but that takes a very narrow view on the entire situation. Zoom out. Not playing has bigger effects on those that should be ousted.


I think the thought of wanting to strangle 1 organization by shutting down the dreams of 360k kids over the faults of a couple adults is a bit narrow minded. How many young kids in Canada are there who play every day to make the U16s and U18s etc.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 6:59 p.m.
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
Well here is an example. Capfriendly is involved with a scandal, all the 42000 individual users are way more important than Capfriendly. So that is why people are worried about the 360k Canadian hockey players last year and not the organization as a whole, and the 600-700k every year before that. I am sure that if capfriendly was to be banned from Google they also wouldn't ban the 42000 users as well.


What this example fails to address is that there is a population of unknown size within the player base of Hockey Canada that has either committed an assault, knows something about an assault, or has helped cover up an assault. The organization of Hockey Canada itself is not the only party likely guilty in this case. If more and more people came forward with accusations towards the players of other junior teams, would you feel the same towards the players as a single entity?

An even larger part of that player base is part of the culture issue that also needs to be addressed in some manner, probably after verdicts have been reached.

I'm not hell bent on ruining international hockey for Canada but if the foundations of the driving organization behind those players and those tournaments is so morally corrupt then things secondary in importance to justice need to step back and wait their turn. A game does not take precedence over human wellbeing.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 7:00 p.m.
#62
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
I think the thought of wanting to strangle 1 organization by shutting down the dreams of 360k kids over the faults of a couple adults is a bit narrow minded. How many young kids in Canada are there who play every day to make the U16s and U18s etc.


Until Parliament or some court-mandated resolution essentially removes the administration of Hockey Canada there is virtually no other outcome that results in a proper culling of historically toxic management.

You don't get to have this both ways unfortunately.
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 7:17 p.m.
#63
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
What this example fails to address is that there is a population of unknown size within the player base of Hockey Canada that has either committed an assault, knows something about an assault, or has helped cover up an assault. The organization of Hockey Canada itself is not the only party likely guilty in this case. If more and more people came forward with accusations towards the players of other junior teams, would you feel the same towards the players as a single entity?

An even larger part of that player base is part of the culture issue that also needs to be addressed in some manner, probably after verdicts have been reached.

I'm not hell bent on ruining international hockey for Canada but if the foundations of the driving organization behind those players and those tournaments is so morally corrupt then things secondary in importance to justice need to step back and wait their turn. A game does not take precedence over human wellbeing.


Well if you want a change you can start by holding the government accountable because what in the heck have they done? Punishing hockey players who had nothing to do with this is beyond stupid. The useless “leaders” in Ottawa should be taking charge.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 7:20 p.m.
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Quoting: CementHead27
Well if you want a change you can start by holding the government accountable because what in the heck have they done? Punishing hockey players who had nothing to do with this is beyond stupid. The useless “leaders” in Ottawa should be taking charge.


Do tell what you'd like the government to do while this is in court.
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 7:36 p.m.
#65
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
What this example fails to address is that there is a population of unknown size within the player base of Hockey Canada that has either committed an assault, knows something about an assault, or has helped cover up an assault. The organization of Hockey Canada itself is not the only party likely guilty in this case. If more and more people came forward with accusations towards the players of other junior teams, would you feel the same towards the players as a single entity?

An even larger part of that player base is part of the culture issue that also needs to be addressed in some manner, probably after verdicts have been reached.

I'm not hell bent on ruining international hockey for Canada but if the foundations of the driving organization behind those players and those tournaments is so morally corrupt then things secondary in importance to justice need to step back and wait their turn. A game does not take precedence over human wellbeing.


Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Until Parliament or some court-mandated resolution essentially removes the administration of Hockey Canada there is virtually no other outcome that results in a proper culling of historically toxic management.

You don't get to have this both ways unfortunately.


I'm sure the ratio of Mods and Site operations members is about the same to the amount of hockey players in Canada between 2003-2022. Let's be honest there is probably only a few ****ty humans out there that would do something like this.

I agree, there needs to be someone who steps in and does these investigation's on criminal actions.

"I'm not hell bent on ruining international hockey for Canada but if the foundations of the driving organization behind those players and those tournaments is so morally corrupt then things secondary in importance to justice need to step back and wait their turn. A game does not take precedence over human wellbeing."

Again, your failing is to miss the point me and others are trying to make here. The organization sure is a small part of the puzzle. Human welfare is what I am caring about here. Obviously this organization has screwed up the human welfare of certain individuals and bury the thing they have done. But let's not sit here and pretend that a sport for young people is not stopping a LOT of problem's. Sports are one of the major contributors to improved mental health, physical health, they bring up better humans because of the different disciplines that they are taught. Obviously if taught by the wrong person this isn't true but I'm talking on a general sense.


My solution would be this. Outright pause and income hockey Canada can make, put the organization in the hands of some other group of people and make sure that the name Hockey Canada isn't used until there is a resolution to the investigations. Then ban and take legal action against all those involved.
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Jul. 26, 2022 at 7:56 p.m.
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
I'm sure the ratio of Mods and Site operations members is about the same to the amount of hockey players in Canada between 2003-2022. Let's be honest there is probably only a few ****ty humans out there that would do something like this.

I agree, there needs to be someone who steps in and does these investigation's on criminal actions.

"I'm not hell bent on ruining international hockey for Canada but if the foundations of the driving organization behind those players and those tournaments is so morally corrupt then things secondary in importance to justice need to step back and wait their turn. A game does not take precedence over human wellbeing."

Again, your failing is to miss the point me and others are trying to make here. The organization sure is a small part of the puzzle. Human welfare is what I am caring about here. Obviously this organization has screwed up the human welfare of certain individuals and bury the thing they have done. But let's not sit here and pretend that a sport for young people is not stopping a LOT of problem's. Sports are one of the major contributors to improved mental health, physical health, they bring up better humans because of the different disciplines that they are taught. Obviously if taught by the wrong person this isn't true but I'm talking on a general sense.


My solution would be this. Outright pause and income hockey Canada can make, put the organization in the hands of some other group of people and make sure that the name Hockey Canada isn't used until there is a resolution to the investigations. Then ban and take legal action against all those involved.


I disagree with your initial point because it dismisses any and all responsibility from those that may not have been directly involved but knew/heard/saw something and failed to speak up. By definition that makes an individual complicit in covering up abuse. I fully understand that those individuals are not inherently responsible but were instead put into a very poor situation by the culture that so deeply permeates this sport.

Sport in general yes should not be punished yes but do not confuse a person's need for physical activity with maintaining operational functionality of Hockey Canada because "it's good for the boys". These are two very, very distinct things.

I do believe however that there's been a miscommunication in what I mean by a ban: the proposed pause you've mentioned is essentially my point. Until everything has been addressed and both the Canadian government and Canadian people are satisfied with the outcome, Hockey Canada should not be playing IIHF-sanctioned events. Not until the dust settles. If no changes occur and the organization continues status quo, then enact an actual proper ban. Taking away opportunities for U18, U20, WC, or other IIHF-sanctioned participation - as earlier identified - is not solving this problem, but maybe turning off the cash flow until the entire situation is understood and resolved? That feels appropriate.
Jul. 26, 2022 at 10:13 p.m.
#67
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Do tell what you'd like the government to do while this is in court.


Maybe they should have followed up with Hockey Canada and made the public aware of the investigation when Sport Canada found out about it in June 2018?
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Jul. 27, 2022 at 4:38 p.m.
#68
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Another great thread from Westhead recapping today’s HC hearing. This is the one thing that hurts the most, massive Yikes, 1 person connected to 4 cases

( note the thread last like 20 consecutive tweets, this is one of the middle tweets )
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Jul. 27, 2022 at 5:15 p.m.
#69
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan




Another great thread from Westhead recapping today’s HC hearing. This is the one thing that hurts the most, massive Yikes, 1 person connected to 4 cases

( note the thread last like 20 consecutive tweets, this is one of the middle tweets )


I just don’t have words for this one



Jul. 27, 2022 at 10:00 p.m.
#70
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I’m a bit older than the guys who played for Graham James, so my very short time in Medicine Hat predates his time in the WHL but from what I’ve heard it was known around the WHL that rumours about him circulated but no one really thought it was true.
Aug. 6, 2022 at 11:09 a.m.
#71
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hopefully one of many exits



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Aug. 6, 2022 at 2:41 p.m.
#72
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Quoting: DirtyDangle
hopefully one of many exits





So long as I haven't misread anything other missed any updates, Brind'Amour will still serve on the board for Hockey Canada just not as the active chair.

For those wondering to what lengths change remains unacceptable, this is one of them. Removing oneself from the helm of such a tainted organization is a step in the right direction. Remaining a part of its decision-making nervous system however, is just an example of the flavour of lip service myself and multiple others on this forum have warned against.
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Aug. 6, 2022 at 2:55 p.m.
#73
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thats disappointing. thats not a change at all.
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Aug. 8, 2022 at 12:52 p.m.
#74
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Quoting: DirtyDangle
thats disappointing. thats not a change at all.


From what I read he is completely off the board
Aug. 11, 2022 at 12:02 a.m.
#75
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
I will wholly admit to being very objective regarding my opinion of this case and others like it. I consider myself a man of science and I've learned that with enough information one can reasonably intuit explanations or outcomes ahead of their actual confirmations. So when I see a mountain of just cause to look at these six or seven young men as abusers and a whole lot of nothing to suggest otherwise, you'll have to forgive me for being able to deduce that this case is going to result in actual consequences for the 2018 team.


I ask, respectively and curiously, what information have you seen that allows you to find that a crime has occurred when special investigators and detectives found the opposite? What new evidence, that has been scrutinized though discovery or cross-examination, not speculation or rumor, would change previous findings?

A man of science waits for evidence, questions their own views, avoids cultural reaffirmations, and never prejudges.

A man of science does not walk into a room saying,”I will be watching what you all say, now here is what I think”.
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