Forums/Armchair-GM

where dubas went wrong

Created by: DirtyDangle
Initial Creation Date: Sep. 18, 2022
Published: Sep. 18, 2022
Team: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs
Team Explanation
leafs could have been a dynasty
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
Sandin, Rasmus2$1,800,000
CREATEDYEARSCAP HIT
marner, mitch3$9,250,000
matthews, austin5$11,640,250
Trades
1.
TOR
  1. Kadri, Nazem
Additional Details:
should have kept kadri. clearly kadri was just the scapegoat. this team didn't makie it out of the 1st round 3 years after trading kadri.
CGY
  1. Kerfoot, Alexander
2.
TOR
    never should have taken a shortcut by signing jt. build from within
    NYI
    1. Tavares, John
    3.
    TOR
    1. Hyman, Zach
    EDM
      the exact type of guy the leafs need
      4.
      TOR
        not worth qualifying at 2.25m
        EDM
        1. Engvall, Pierre
        5.
        TOR
          league min player
          EDM
          1. Aubé-Kubel, Nicolas
          6.
          TOR
          1. Durzi, Sean
          2. Grundström, Carl
          3. Björnfot, Tobias
          LAK
          1. Muzzin, Jake
          Additional Details:
          overpaid for muzzin
          7.
          TOR
          1. Tomasino, Philip
          NSH
          1. Björnfot, Tobias
          Additional Details:
          drafted the local kid instead of bjornfot
          8.
          TOR
            questionable goalie with questionable health.

            even if you wanted to roll the dice on murray dubas should have got more retention instead of mid/late picks.
            NSH
            1. Murray, Matt
            2. 2024 7th round pick (OTT)
            3. 2023 3rd round pick (OTT)
            9.
            TOR
              overpaid on his contract. should be making rantanen money.
              NSH
              1. Marner, Mitchell
              10.
              TOR
                overpaid should be an 8 year contract for that money
                NSH
                1. Matthews, Auston
                DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
                2023
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                2024
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                2025
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                Logo of the TOR
                ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
                22$82,500,000$72,559,283$212,500$212,500$9,940,717
                Left WingCenterRight Wing
                Logo of the TOR
                Bunting, Michael
                $950,000
                LW
                UFA - 1
                matthews, austin
                $11,640,250
                marner, mitch
                $9,250,000
                Logo of the EDM
                Hyman, Zach
                $5,500,000
                LW, RW
                NMC
                UFA - 6
                Logo of the CGY
                Kadri, Nazem
                $7,000,000
                C
                NMC
                UFA - 7
                Logo of the TOR
                Nylander, William
                $6,962,366
                RW, LW
                UFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Järnkrok, Calle
                $2,100,000
                C, LW, RW
                NTC
                UFA - 4
                Logo of the TOR
                Kämpf, David
                $1,500,000
                C
                UFA - 1
                Logo of the NSH
                Tomasino, Philip
                $863,333
                RW, C
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the LAK
                Grundström, Carl
                $1,300,000
                LW, RW
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Steeves, Alex
                $834,167
                C
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Simmonds, Wayne
                $900,000
                RW, LW
                NTC
                UFA - 1
                Logo of the TOR
                Robertson, Nicholas
                $796,667
                LW
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Anderson, Joey
                $750,000
                RW
                RFA - 1
                Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
                Logo of the TOR
                Rielly, Morgan
                $7,500,000
                LD
                NMC
                UFA - 8
                Logo of the TOR
                Brodie, TJ
                $5,000,000
                LD/RD
                NTC
                UFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Samsonov, Ilya
                $1,800,000
                G
                RFA - 1
                Logo of the TOR
                Giordano, Mark
                $800,000
                LD
                UFA - 2
                Logo of the LAK
                Durzi, Sean
                $1,700,000
                LD/RD
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Sandin, Rasmus
                $1,800,000
                LD
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Liljegren, Timothy
                $1,400,000
                RD
                RFA - 2
                Logo of the TOR
                Holl, Justin
                $2,000,000
                RD
                NTC
                UFA - 1

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                Sep. 18 at 9:04 a.m.
                #1
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                Where’s your other goalie?
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                Sep. 18 at 9:10 a.m.
                #2
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                Quoting: nintendofan721
                Where’s your other goalie?


                not sure what of the other options the leafs should have went for. they still could have went the murray @ $3.125m route with 50% retention. kuemper, campbell, and husso would all have been options too. leafs have $10m to spend how they see fit.
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                Sep. 18 at 9:20 a.m.
                #3
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                Problem with those this is what they should have signed him for deals is.... what makes you think said player would have agreed? "Mathews should be 8 years for that price" . I'd be willing to bet Dubas tried to get him to sign 8 years but Mathews said NO.
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                Sep. 18 at 9:32 a.m.
                #4
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                Kadri literally did the same thing 3 years in a row on two different teams. He wasnt a scapegoat he was a liability. Neat that he turned it around 2 years after the trade
                Tavares was a good signing and the pandemic doesn't change that, same with the matthews deal.
                Marner wasa slight overpay at worst.
                Muzzin was well worth the price and him getting injured years later doesnt change that
                Hymans contract is terrible and the leafs dodged that bullet. Dude cant even get it done with mcdavid.
                Lol at the terrible cost eval of engvall and NAK,if the sens had them on those deals you'd be saying they were great value.
                Ive never seen so much complaining about a goalie you got paid to take either.
                Just a whole lot of hindsight and grass is greener logic here
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                Sep. 18 at 9:35 a.m.
                #5
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                Quoting: Boltsradynasty
                Problem with those this is what they should have signed him for deals is.... what makes you think said player would have agreed? "Mathews should be 8 years for that price" . I'd be willing to bet Dubas tried to get him to sign 8 years but Mathews said NO.


                dubas caves too easily in negotiations.

                mcdavid signed for 8 no reason matthews couldn't
                Sep. 18 at 9:37 a.m.
                #6
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                not sure what of the other options the leafs should have went for. they still could have went the murray $3.125m route with 50% retention. kuemper, campbell, and husso would all have been options too. leafs have $10m to spend how they see fit.


                Yeah, and imagine how much they'd have had if both campbell and husso signed 1 mill aav each!
                Sep. 18 at 9:39 a.m.
                #7
                LongtimeLeafsufferer
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                Here's my take on Dubai's mistakes. And I also blame total Leaf management. Where are all these high priced executives, helping laying out a plan especially getting comparables in contract negotiations.

                Matthews contract. At the time, no way should have Matthews have got the second highest salary in the league (after McDavid) especially on a five year deal. Apparently earlier in the year, Matthews offered the Leafs a 5 year deal at 9.5m, but the Leafs turned him down hoping for a longer deal. Then the Leafs agreed to a five year deal at 11.6m, throwing away 2,6m in cap.
                One reason Matthews wanted a short term deal was because the incompetent Babcock was coach. Apparently Matthews had little respect for Babcock. Now if Babcock had not been Leaf coach maybe he would have signed for eight years.

                Marner. Always a stunner to me. Aho of Carolina who identical stats for two seasons signed a 8.5m X 5 years with Carolina after the Habs offer sheeted him. Somehow Marner got over 2m per season on a six year deal...10.69m, when the deal was made in the same summer as Aho's

                I'm not so critical of Tavares contract.....as who was suspect the cap would remain so low due to Covid. Muzzin resigned just prior to Covid, so his 5.6m contract would have been much lower even if he had gone to UFA. Maybe the Muzzin trade wasn't such a big mistake but the extension was.

                Horrible signing of Mrzarek and then the trade for the even more expensive Murray

                Kadri trade. The Leafs believed that Barrie at RHD was going to make a difference for a year. As it turned out, Barrie (by my analysis ) was the worse Leaf Dman in his only Leaf season. So the trade wasn't for Kerfoot for Kadri, but Kerfoot and Barrie for Kadri. Like Barrie, Kadri would not have resigned as a UFA with the Leafs. I think Kadri's term is way too much in his new contract.

                Hyman. Loved Hyman but his 7 year term is too much....

                Nothing wrong with Engvall making 2.2m this season, but he will be a UFA next summer.

                Leafs over the years....even going back to Fletcher, Quinn, Burke, Lou and Dubas. Given away way too many draft picks or young players due to "going for it" or getting out of bad contracts. One of the most important jobs of a GM is to manage the cap well....and the Leafs haven't done that well at all for generations.
                When Matthews, Nylander, Muzzin and Murray are gone as UFA in the summer of 2024, the Leafs will have cap but really few good ELC players to take over their roles. The Leafs have few NHL prospects and certainly even fewer "different maker" prospects.
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                Sep. 18 at 9:40 a.m.
                #8
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                dubas caves too easily in negotiations.

                mcdavid signed for 8 no reason matthews couldn't


                No he doesnt.

                There are lots of reasons matthews wouldn't sign for 8 years. You could ask crosby, malkin, hedman, mackinnon etc etc etc
                Sep. 18 at 9:40 a.m.
                #9
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                Quoting: JaredOfLondon
                Kadri literally did the same thing 3 years in a row on two different teams. He wasnt a scapegoat he was a liability. Neat that he turned it around 2 years after the trade
                Tavares was a good signing and the pandemic doesn't change that, same with the matthews deal.
                Marner wasa slight overpay at worst.
                Muzzin was well worth the price and him getting injured years later doesnt change that
                Hymans contract is terrible and the leafs dodged that bullet. Dude cant even get it done with mcdavid.
                Lol at the terrible cost eval of engvall and NAK,if the sens had them on those deals you'd be saying they were great value.
                Ive never seen so much complaining about a goalie you got paid to take either.
                Just a whole lot of hindsight and grass is greener logic here


                tavares was a mistake

                dubas caved in the matthews and marner negotiations

                muzzin was an overpay.

                hyman was a stud in the playoffs. the type of player the leafs need. marner and nylander dont like to go into the corners

                just a lot of forseeable mistakes.
                Sep. 18 at 9:42 a.m.
                #10
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                Quoting: palhal
                Here's my take on Dubai's mistakes. And I also blame total Leaf management. Where are all these high priced executives, helping laying out a plan especially getting comparables in contract negotiations.

                Matthews contract. At the time, no way should have Matthews have got the second highest salary in the league (after McDavid) especially on a five year deal. Apparently earlier in the year, Matthews offered the Leafs a 5 year deal at 9.5m, but the Leafs turned him down hoping for a longer deal. Then the Leafs agreed to a five year deal at 11.6m, throwing away 2,6m in cap.
                One reason Matthews wanted a short term deal was because the incompetent Babcock was coach. Apparently Matthews had little respect for Babcock. Now if Babcock had not been Leaf coach maybe he would have signed for eight years.

                Marner. Always a stunner to me. Aho of Carolina who identical stats for two seasons signed a 8.5m X 5 years with Carolina after the Habs offer sheeted him. Somehow Marner got over 2m per season on a six year deal...10.69m, when the deal was made in the same summer as Aho's

                I'm not so critical of Tavares contract.....as who was suspect the cap would remain so low due to Covid. Muzzin resigned just prior to Covid, so his 5.6m contract would have been much lower even if he had gone to UFA. Maybe the Muzzin trade wasn't such a big mistake but the extension was.

                Horrible signing of Mrzarek and then the trade for the even more expensive Murray

                Kadri trade. The Leafs believed that Barrie at RHD was going to make a difference for a year. As it turned out, Barrie (by my analysis ) was the worse Leaf Dman in his only Leaf season. So the trade wasn't for Kerfoot for Kadri, but Kerfoot and Barrie for Kadri. Like Barrie, Kadri would not have resigned as a UFA with the Leafs. I think Kadri's term is way too much in his new contract.

                Hyman. Loved Hyman but his 7 year term is too much....

                Nothing wrong with Engvall making 2.2m this season, but he will be a UFA next summer.

                Leafs over the years....even going back to Fletcher, Quinn, Burke, Lou and Dubas. Given away way too many draft picks or young players due to "going for it" or getting out of bad contracts. One of the most important jobs of a GM is to manage the cap well....and the Leafs haven't done that well at all for generations.
                When Matthews, Nylander, Muzzin and Murray are gone as UFA in the summer of 2024, the Leafs will have cap but really few good ELC players to take over their roles. The Leafs have few NHL prospects and certainly even fewer "different maker" prospects.


                Matthews took a shorter term for one reason and one alone, he gets to cash out on his 3rd contract sooner while in prime. Just because mcdavid is too dumb to do it doesnt make matthews contract worse.
                Sep. 18 at 9:44 a.m.
                #11
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                Quoting: JaredOfLondon
                Matthews took a shorter term for one reason and one alone, he gets to cash out on his 3rd contract sooner while in prime. Just because mcdavid is too dumb to do it doesnt make matthews contract worse.


                5 years is fine but he's getting paid the 8 year price
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                Sep. 18 at 9:44 a.m.
                #12
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                tavares was a mistake

                dubas caved in the matthews and marner negotiations

                muzzin was an overpay.

                hyman was a stud in the playoffs. the type of player the leafs need. marner and nylander dont like to go into the corners

                just a lot of forseeable mistakes.


                Tavares was a great signing
                No he didnt
                No he wasn't
                Hyman was utter trash for the leafs inthe playoffs and hasnt done anything in edmonton except have mcdavid bounce pucks off him on the power play
                Just a lot of woulda shoulda coulda
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                Sep. 18 at 9:45 a.m.
                #13
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                5 years is fine but he's getting paid the 8 year price


                No he didnt. He was then, and is now the best goal scorer in the league. The 8 year price was 13+
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                Sep. 18 at 9:47 a.m.
                #14
                LongtimeLeafsufferer
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                Quoting: JaredOfLondon
                Matthews took a shorter term for one reason and one alone, he gets to cash out on his 3rd contract sooner while in prime. Just because mcdavid is too dumb to do it doesnt make matthews contract worse.


                Maybe, but if true that Matthews offered the Leafs a 9.5m X 5, that the Leafs rejected, and then six months later the Leafs signed him for 11.6m deal.....isn't that throwing away 2.1m in cap for five years?
                McDavid wasn't dumb....gee he still makes the most of any NHLer. I still think he will be a Leaf after his Oiler contract.
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                Sep. 18 at 9:53 a.m.
                #15
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                dubas caves too easily in negotiations.

                mcdavid signed for 8 no reason matthews couldn't


                So You know Mathews didn't refuse to sign 8 years . Just because McDavid signed for that doesn't mean Mathews would . Maybe he wants the right to go UFA more likely the case.He probably felt he could make a lot more on the open Market.
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                Sep. 18 at 9:54 a.m.
                #16
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                Quoting: palhal
                Maybe, but if true that Matthews offered the Leafs a 9.5m X 5, that the Leafs rejected, and then six months later the Leafs signed him for 11.6m deal.....isn't that throwing away 2.1m in cap for five years?
                McDavid wasn't dumb....gee he still makes the most of any NHLer. I still think he will be a Leaf after his Oiler contract.


                If fake things that arnt true were true, yes it would be dumb, but then also not because lots changes in 6 months in the nhl, especially with superstars who explode production wise over that 6 months. And the rumour was for 3 years, not 5 and how would that look now with matthews wanting league max? It would look pretty stupid by the leafs eh?

                And mcdavid was dumb, he took the 'im a good boy' discount when he had a blank check. He took a 2.1 mill haircut because he's a hockey robot, that's very dumb
                Sep. 18 at 10:23 a.m.
                #17
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                Hyman was replaced by Bunting, the question is while the Leafs be able to retain him beyond this season? If not who will replace him?

                Alot of the other points were already addressed but just to reiterate, a GM can't force a player to take x amount if they don't want to. McDavid became the highest paid player in the league with his 8 year contract. Tbe only way to have gotten Matthews to have taken 8 years was probably a 13.5m+ deal which would have left them with less money. Need to also acknowledge the difficulty of the task Dubas had with trying to sign/extend all 3 of Matthews, Nylander, and Marner in the same off-season, which means he can't just try to go down to the wire with all 3 guys or he won't know how much he has to spend in negotiations.
                Sep. 18 at 10:24 a.m.
                #18
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                Hindsight is always 20/20, we could easily look back in 3 years and Kadris the worst contract in the league and the Leafs went back to back. I think Dubas has done good so far in his tenure, but I will admit players walk all over him when it comes to contracts. Sandin hasn't done a damn thing in this league and he's potentially holding out if he doesn't get his number.
                Sep. 18 at 10:26 a.m.
                #19
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                Edited Sep. 18 at 12:49 p.m.
                Quoting: Boltsradynasty
                So You know Mathews didn't refuse to sign 8 years . Just because McDavid signed for that doesn't mean Mathews would . Maybe he wants the right to go UFA more likely the case.He probably felt he could make a lot more on the open Market.


                than sign him at the cheaper cap hit for 5 years.
                Sep. 18 at 10:46 a.m.
                #20
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                I like those hindsigh post. mostly because they changed every every year. im willing to bet in 2 years no one will say '' they should have kept hyman''. i also cant recall a single person being sad that durzi was gone.
                Sep. 18 at 10:47 a.m.
                #21
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                Quoting: DirtyDangle
                then sign him at the cheaper cap hit for 5 years.


                He was not going to take less than that on 5 years. Do you think Dubas just said "Here, have some extra cash" ? Matthews had the 5th highest goal total over those from 2016-2019, and I believe the second highest GPG rate and I'm guessing for 5v5 G as well.

                So, it was pretty clear to everyone involved in the negotiations that he would likely be the top goal scorer in the League after Ovechkin who was the former highest paid player. 8 years would have required making Matthews the highest paid player, and you would have been saying Dubas should have signed him to a 9 or 10m bridge deal.
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                Sep. 18 at 10:50 a.m.
                #22
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                Quoting: GMBL
                He was not going to take less than that on 5 years. Do you think Dubas just said "Here, have some extra cash" ? Matthews had the 5th highest goal total over those from 2016-2019, and I believe the second highest GPG rate and I'm guessing for 5v5 G as well.

                So, it was pretty clear to everyone involved in the negotiations that he would likely be the top goal scorer in the League after Ovechkin who was the former highest paid player. 8 years would have required making Matthews the highest paid player, and you would have been saying Dubas should have signed him to a 9 or 10m bridge deal.


                its pretty well known that dubas isn't a good negotiator
                Sep. 18 at 11:07 a.m.
                #23
                Leafs suck
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                *best season in franchise history by a mile* dUfAs ScReWeD uP bIg TiMe. Always makes me laugh seeing the “they shouldn’t have signed Tavares” stuff. We begged for Tavares to sign here and he did. He has done nothing but play his best for this team and his best is pretty damn good. $11M was signed in mind with the cap going up, pandemic happened, and just like every team, they have cap problems. The contract was his value. Regardless, Dubas has still managed to find a way to make this team a cup contender every year. I don’t think the collapses in the first round are solely on him. It’s on the players at some point. The kadri trade hurts. Having him as a 3C is not getting full value from him, so trading him made sense. They tried to get Brodie, barrie and kerfoot were the 2nd option. Kerfoot had 50 something points this year and was excellent, so idk what the massive complaining is about when kadri in his final season as a leaf was slightly better at a $1M more cap hit. Hyman was too much to keep. Would you have also wanted to sign naz to $7Mx7? Don’t think so. Also Freddy had to go. He ended up doing well but oh well hindsight is 20/20. He made the defence soooo much better, added depth scoring, and created the best first line in the league out of nowhere. The stars are paid fairly now. Matthews will want and deserve $13M+, marner is also worth that deal as well. Should they have been longer ya but my god no one is perfect.
                Sep. 18 at 11:27 a.m.
                #24
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                Day 1 on the job and Dubas screwed himself by signing J.T. , everything done after that signing was a cause and effect domino tumble.

                Dubas is the most over rated GM.
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                Sep. 18 at 11:31 a.m.
                #25
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                Quoting: GMBL
                Hyman was replaced by Bunting, the question is while the Leafs be able to retain him beyond this season? If not who will replace him?

                Alot of the other points were already addressed but just to reiterate, a GM can't force a player to take x amount if they don't want to. McDavid became the highest paid player in the league with his 8 year contract. Tbe only way to have gotten Matthews to have taken 8 years was probably a 13.5m+ deal which would have left them with less money. Need to also acknowledge the difficulty of the task Dubas had with trying to sign/extend all 3 of Matthews, Nylander, and Marner in the same off-season, which means he can't just try to go down to the wire with all 3 guys or he won't know how much he has to spend in negotiations.


                Nylander's contract was in a different summer. Just to correct you.

                MnM were free agents the same year as Kapanen and Johnsson.
                 
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