Gio on the 1st line, LMAO that's brutal!

sorry but theres nothing impressive or intimidating about those wingers after Marner and Nylander...weak D and weak goaltending

Well, with all due respect...... the blueline is still looking better than Montreal's.

Wow. Some pretty bold statements. The hate on the Leafs is alive and well here which usually means were heading in the right direction or at least vastly better than some even can grasp or handle lol

A Hawks fan that failed to realize Giordano averaged over 20 minutes a game last season, and a Habs fan calling it weak when Chris Wideman is in their top 4.

I would still like another physical defenseman, but overall, this is deep.

If you think Gio being on the first line doesn't amplify one of the biggest problems the leafs have had for the last 6 years, and specifically last year's playoff run when he was on the 2nd line, then you need a wake up call. Not one successful playoff team would play Gio in their top 4. With the questionable playoff D squad and now the most questionable goaltending, the Leafs are headed for a 7th in a row first series post season exit. That's not hate, that's just reality.

LMAO I know exactly what I'm talking about. Gio wouldn't make the top 4 on any successful playoff team last year...care to argue that?

You are simply out of your mind if you think, for a team that should be competing, that Gio is anything more then a 3rd liner or 7th man. Dude, stop drinking the blue and white kool-aid because the defense is thin still and the goaltending is more questionable then ever. A NHL record 6 first series post season exits in a row and you think Gio, because "HE AVERAGED 20 MINUTES A NIGHT LAST YEAR" on a failed playoff team, is a good idea. WOW

He's arguably a top 4 dman on most teams in the league and just 3 years removed from a Norris trophy. Sure, he's 38 and not what he was but is still an extremely valuable player. Labelling him a 3rd liner or 7th dman is beyond absurd. For that matter, there's only a handful of teams that you can safely say have a better d-core than the Leafs. Man is the hate on ever real.

I specifically talked about successful teams in the playoffs, not the league. Unless you or the Leafs are only measuring themselves as average, since you stated it that way, it begs the question maybe that's the problem the last 6 years. I venture to say that's not the case and they are looking for a way to win playoff series, so that is why I'm measuring the roster against the successful playoff teams. To that end, it is absurd for you to argue that Gio is a top 4, let alone top line defender, on teams like Colorado, Tampa, Florida, NYR who had the most successful playoff runs, or probably the four most competitive teams, this past year. On those teams, Gio is a 3rd liner or maybe even a 7th. Measuring against the overall league is what is absurd unless you've been satisfied with the results the last 6 years.

This isn't hate, this is just real stuff. Even though I'm on a Hawks fan, I follow the Leafs very closely.

You seemed to focus primarily on one part of my post so I'll repeat this sentence "For that matter, there's only a handful of teams that you can safely say have a better d-core than the Leafs." How does that insinuate average?

Also, your assessment of Gio is quite a bit off. On the teams mentioned he would have been anywhere from a 3rd to 5th dman at worst. And even that doesn''t mean you can't put him on a top pairing i.e. Foote/Bogosian w/ Hedman, and that's being ultra generous on my part as Gio is way better than those players.

Having said that,
Gio > Manson
Gio > Foote
Gio > Gudas

Pretty sure those teams would love to have him and use him in key situations. Not much else I can say, but we can revisit this in a few of months!

So for your examples:

Giordano would be the third best defenseman on Florida this year

Ekblad
Forsling
Gio
Montour
Etc

3rd or 4th (but probably 4th) on Tampa
Hedman
Sergachev
Cernak
Gio (but it's close with cernak)
Whomever

4th for now on Colorado but Byram is on the upswing to likely overtake him
Makar
Toews
Girard
Gio
Byram (and before you say otherwise he only played 18.5 minutes last year a game. As I said he's on the upswing and will likely overtake him though)

3rd to 4th on the Rangers
Fox
Trouba
Gio or Miller
Gio or Miller
Lindgren

So he would be top 4 on most and #3 on Florida... What point are you making exactly?

Plenty of guys also play on a higher pairing at evens but their total ice time isn't that high because of special teams

Also finally please stop writing lines for d. Its pairings.

Your initial words "He's arguably a top 4 dman on most teams in the league" I never compared the Leafs to most teams in the league, I'm comparing them in my original post to the successful playoff teams being NYR, Tampa, Colorado, and Florida. I will stand by and say, Gio is a 3rd liner on those teams unless he's sheltered with a Hedman like Foote was...Hedman arguably the top 2 D men in the league. The AGM has him here as a first liner, that's a problem let alone considering him on the 2nd line in the playoffs.

The Leafs core is not top in the league and yes, I've read all the stats but digging deeper, the Leafs have generally been able to control the puck better then most teams, which is more a by-product of their top 6 IMO then the D being one of the best in the league.

It is pairings, which as a good example by someone else, with Hedman and Foote being sheltered in a role next to one of, if not the best defensemen in the league. But every analysts, generally speaking, talks about players capabilities individually as to what lines they would be a fit for, same way they rate prospects. You can shelter roles through pairings, and that is what you're trying to do here clearly with Gio being sheltered by Morgan. However, my point is, Gio is a 3rd liner on a good playoff team and Morgan is not Hedman. As for the rest, what you are really arguing going into this season and looking at the most successful teams you compared to, is Gio at best is a #4 guy...I see your point and it is valid but at best, however, ideally he's a 3rd line player at this point in his career. Gio btw doesn't have the speed anymore to play in a top 4 role in the system Colorado runs, which brings up systematically how does he fit not simply looking at him compared to other players in isolation.