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Toronto Maple Leafs 2022 season Discussion

Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:26 a.m.
#701
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:44 a.m.
#702
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
With all this talk about Foligno, does anyone have faith in Dubas that he can pull off a trade that helps this team offensively? The need was so clearly there in the offseason yet he doubled down on getting defensive players. His track record fit identifying young talent in the draft is really good. But his ability to win trades or impactful ones is not.

His trade history leaves a lot to be desired. Like outside of the Kapanen deal and Campbell deal, there is not very much to like or improve this team. Even the Muzzin trade (it was so clear even then they NEEDED an RD, with Muzzin even coming out saying he has played RD and will play wherever Babcock wants him). John Tavares was the last player Kyle brought in to help this team offensively (you could make the argument Tavares only wanted to play here). Michael Bunting also but again you can make the argument he only wanted to play in Toronto also.

Kyle’s trade history

He walked into a situation with a loaded team, he has done a good job at revamping the Dcore (from what Lou has built) but my faith in him making the right decision is very low.

Thoughts?


A number of his earlier trades and decisions were dedicated to either clearing cap space and/or getting out from under Lou's bad decisions. Marleau and Zaitsev contracts were going to be net losses if this team wanted to pay it's young stars.

His two biggest blunders were the Kadri trade and the Foligno trade, and the common theme between those two were that both were favorably received when they were executed. Kadri was coming off of another playoffs were he got himself suspended and there was a need for a RHD on the blueline. Going into the pandemic playoffs, a big narrative surrounding the Leafs were regarding how they weren't a "tough and gritty" team. In the context of both of those, you can see why those trades happened and why people liked them.

Most of his other decisions are fine. Muzzin trade was great (as evidenced by how much the team lacks without him on the ice), and some of his other trades like the Kapanen, Campbell, Ritchie, Johnsson and a few of his draft night trades were more akin to savvy frugalness than outright fleecings. Apart from the Campbell trade though, none of those have really tilted the scales with the team, and when he's made a move to do so it's not turned out as great, as seen with the Kadri and Foligno deals.

A trade to improve this teams sorry state of 5v5 scoring needs to happen, but you can understand the hesitancy of Dubas to make such a move, given how not only has his major trades backfired but how he's also in the last year of his contract and major moves are likely more under scrutiny from guys like Shanahan. We'll see.
Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:44 a.m.
#703
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lol
Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:53 a.m.
#704
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Quoting: mondo
A number of his earlier trades and decisions were dedicated to either clearing cap space and/or getting out from under Lou's bad decisions. Marleau and Zaitsev contracts were going to be net losses if this team wanted to pay it's young stars.

His two biggest blunders were the Kadri trade and the Foligno trade, and the common theme between those two were that both were favorably received when they were executed. Kadri was coming off of another playoffs were he got himself suspended and there was a need for a RHD on the blueline. Going into the pandemic playoffs, a big narrative surrounding the Leafs were regarding how they weren't a "tough and gritty" team. In the context of both of those, you can see why those trades happened and why people liked them.

Most of his other decisions are fine. Muzzin trade was great (as evidenced by how much the team lacks without him on the ice), and some of his other trades like the Kapanen, Campbell, Ritchie, Johnsson and a few of his draft night trades were more akin to savvy frugalness than outright fleecings. Apart from the Campbell trade though, none of those have really tilted the scales with the team, and when he's made a move to do so it's not turned out as great, as seen with the Kadri and Foligno deals.

A trade to improve this teams sorry state of 5v5 scoring needs to happen, but you can understand the hesitancy of Dubas to make such a move, given how not only has his major trades backfired but how he's also in the last year of his contract and major moves are likely more under scrutiny from guys like Shanahan. We'll see.


Love it, appreciate you take.

What I find frustrating also is there were some clear players in FA this summer that could have addressed this: Niederreiter, Perron, Kubalik, Strome, Milano, Athanasiou, Marchment, Vatrano, and Rodrigues.

Yes, moving on from Kerfoot (which should have happen last year), not resigning Engvall, could have accomplished a last two of those guys. Maybe 3 if you don’t target Jarnkrok.

It’s super frustrating they have to use assets now to address these glaring needs 18 games into the season
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:55 a.m.
#705
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Quoting: mondo




lol


Love the, “what others don’t do” which is scoring 🤦‍♂️
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 11:58 a.m.
#706
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
Love it, appreciate you take.

What I find frustrating also is there were some clear players in FA this summer that could have addressed this: Niederreiter, Perron, Kubalik, Strome, Milano, Athanasiou, Marchment, Vatrano, and Rodrigues.

Yes, moving on from Kerfoot (which should have happen last year), not resigning Engvall, could have accomplished a last two of those guys. Maybe 3 if you don’t target Jarnkrok.

It’s super frustrating they have to use assets now to address these glaring needs 18 games into the season


Leafs being awful at finishing is a problem entirely new this season. Matthews hasn't been phenomenal and no one in the bottom six really has hands. Hindsight move was to send Kerfoot away and get one of those guys whose more prone to shooting than....whatever the **** Kerfoot does to earn 16 minutes a night.

Right now, my vote is to get Horvat and Domi and/or Athanasiou to help improve this teams offense. The secondary scoring has always been a dud in the crucial playoff games and the Leafs need proven talent in order to make the bottom six lines more prominent; both so the Leafs have options and so that it helps out the top lines.
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 12:03 p.m.
#707
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Quoting: mondo
Leafs being awful at finishing is a problem entirely new this season. Matthews hasn't been phenomenal and no one in the bottom six really has hands. Hindsight move was to send Kerfoot away and get one of those guys whose more prone to shooting than....whatever the **** Kerfoot does to earn 16 minutes a night.

Right now, my vote is to get Horvat and Domi and/or Athanasiou to help improve this teams offense. The secondary scoring has always been a dud in the crucial playoff games and the Leafs need proven talent in order to make the bottom six lines more prominent; both so the Leafs have options and so that it helps out the top lines.


Hindsight? Ive been banging the trade Kerfoot drum for a year now saying his value was never going to be higher! this wasnt out of the blue!
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 12:05 p.m.
#708
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Quoting: Random2152
Hindsight? Ive been banging the trade Kerfoot drum for a year now saying his value was never going to be higher! this wasnt out of the blue!


A lot of people wanted Kerfoot gone this offseason, me included. Hindsight in that "you definitely should've traded him".
Nov. 18, 2022 at 2:36 p.m.
#709
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Edited Nov. 18, 2022 at 2:44 p.m.
Quoting: mondo
A number of his earlier trades and decisions were dedicated to either clearing cap space and/or getting out from under Lou's bad decisions. Marleau and Zaitsev contracts were going to be net losses if this team wanted to pay it's young stars.

His two biggest blunders were the Kadri trade and the Foligno trade, and the common theme between those two were that both were favorably received when they were executed. Kadri was coming off of another playoffs were he got himself suspended and there was a need for a RHD on the blueline. Going into the pandemic playoffs, a big narrative surrounding the Leafs were regarding how they weren't a "tough and gritty" team. In the context of both of those, you can see why those trades happened and why people liked them.

Most of his other decisions are fine. Muzzin trade was great (as evidenced by how much the team lacks without him on the ice), and some of his other trades like the Kapanen, Campbell, Ritchie, Johnsson and a few of his draft night trades were more akin to savvy frugalness than outright fleecings. Apart from the Campbell trade though, none of those have really tilted the scales with the team, and when he's made a move to do so it's not turned out as great, as seen with the Kadri and Foligno deals.

A trade to improve this teams sorry state of 5v5 scoring needs to happen, but you can understand the hesitancy of Dubas to make such a move, given how not only has his major trades backfired but how he's also in the last year of his contract and major moves are likely more under scrutiny from guys like Shanahan. We'll see.


I give the zaitsev trade an A+ as imagine if he was still here

We would be miserable

But in general agreed most of his trades were fixing Lou's mess or giving guys an opportunity. We all knew giving Marleau 3 years was gonna be bad it happened.

Muzzin trade was good and it sucks Muzzin had to suffer 5 big injuries but what can you do

Campbell was a nice trade and for 2.5 years he stabilized things. But he fell apart in his final year and didn't get it done.

As for Kadri well it could have gone either way.as if Tampa three peated nobody would have cared

Will say the Foligno trade wasn't the best but Seattle was coming and it changed plans as many teams spent big for rentals
Nov. 18, 2022 at 2:50 p.m.
#710
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Edited Nov. 18, 2022 at 3:03 p.m.
Quoting: Nathaniel




Here's the thing with that. In the playoffs teams tighten up so scoring more than 2 is not easy. A balance is needed and rn both things need fixing

Knies is the forward and maybe we go get a proper 3c but for D we got nobody

We need a proper guy for Rielly as then u can reunite GIO with Liligren and try Sandin-Brodie

As when you look at Boston and Tampa heck even Florida yeah ours fell off the totem pole with Muzzin out

Cause in the post season if we go

Rielly-Benn
Sandin-Brodie
Gio-Liligren

Man Sammy or Murray gonna have to work their asses off
Nov. 18, 2022 at 3:16 p.m.
#711
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Quoting: mondo
A lot of people wanted Kerfoot gone this offseason, me included. Hindsight in that "you definitely should've traded him".


Again, not hindsight. See the "highest value" bit.

Besides i was on this way before it was cool
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 3:18 p.m.
#712
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Quoting: aadoyle
Here's the thing with that. In the playoffs teams tighten up so scoring more than 2 is not easy. A balance is needed and rn both things need fixing

Knies is the forward and maybe we go get a proper 3c but for D we got nobody

We need a proper guy for Rielly as then u can reunite GIO with Liligren and try Sandin-Brodie

As when you look at Boston and Tampa heck even Florida yeah ours fell off the totem pole with Muzzin out

Cause in the post season if we go

Rielly-Benn
Sandin-Brodie
Gio-Liligren

Man Sammy or Murray gonna have to work their asses off


Every single year in the playoffs our offense has dried up to some of the lowest in the league and we have lost despite good d results and getting defensive players at the deadline.

We. Need. More. Scoring.
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 3:32 p.m.
#713
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Quoting: Random2152
Every single year in the playoffs our offense has dried up to some of the lowest in the league and we have lost despite good d results and getting defensive players at the deadline.

We. Need. More. Scoring.


You're right. Its CF storyline all the time. If the Leafs don't do well, it's the poor defencemen, the poor goalies, the poor bottom six, the lack of size. But more often than not as you suggest, it's "stars" on offence that haven't lived up to their contracts.
Nov. 18, 2022 at 4:44 p.m.
#714
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Quoting: palhal
You're right. Its CF storyline all the time. If the Leafs don't do well, it's the poor defencemen, the poor goalies, the poor bottom six, the lack of size. But more often than not as you suggest, it's "stars" on offence that haven't lived up to their contracts.


Youre close. Its usually the depth not giving anything. A team can shut down one of our top lines but the 2nd is always dangerous - which is the point.

We need more from the 3rd and 4th to be un-defendable
Nov. 18, 2022 at 5:53 p.m.
#715
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Quoting: palhal
You're right. Its CF storyline all the time. If the Leafs don't do well, it's the poor defencemen, the poor goalies, the poor bottom six, the lack of size. But more often than not as you suggest, it's "stars" on offence that haven't lived up to their contracts.


In general if all 4 could perform together rather than 2 for games 1-3 then the other 2 for 4-7 that would be nice

Like in Tampa

Matthews + Marner good games 1-3 quiet for the rest

Game 4-7 Tavares and Nylander start performing but were absent 1-3

If those 4 and at least 2 depth guys get going then you got something. But also defense be key. As we saw when Muzzin went down we had nobody to adequately replace him. Goaltending is the least of my concerns as honestly both guys look good rn
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 7:42 p.m.
#716
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Quoting: Random2152
Again, not hindsight. See the "highest value" bit.

Besides i was on this way before it was cool


My friends used to call me an idiot for wanting to move on from Kerf. He is not bad by any means, but he is not a fit on this team IMO
Nov. 18, 2022 at 8:23 p.m.
#717
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Quoting: Nathaniel
My friends used to call me an idiot for wanting to move on from Kerf. He is not bad by any means, but he is not a fit on this team IMO


Until they go get a 2-way PK 3C I dont see him going as he still has his uses
Nov. 18, 2022 at 9:12 p.m.
#718
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Quoting: aadoyle
Until they go get a 2-way PK 3C I dont see him going as he still has his uses


My issue is that Kerfoot is miscast as being this versatile, center / wing 2 way specialist, when he is not. He is a middle 6 scoring winger. On the second line is isn't utilized as a scorer and on the third line he is COMPLETELY out of his depth. Just because he does what is asked of him doesn't mean he does it well. He does average at a bit of everything, and because of that, he isn't our ace in the hole. He is a placeholder that makes 3,5 mil and now has a M-NTC. Should've sold on him
Nov. 18, 2022 at 9:18 p.m.
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Kinda wanna f*ck around and find out with this top 9:

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Jarnkrok - Tavares - Marner
Robertson - Kampf - Malgin
Nov. 18, 2022 at 9:20 p.m.
#720
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
Kinda wanna f*ck around and find out with this top 9:

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Jarnkrok - Tavares - Marner
Robertson - Kampf - Malgin


I wouldnt split up Aston Reese - Kampf - Malgin. Rolling a third line of Kerfoot - Holmberg - Robertson could be fun
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Nov. 18, 2022 at 9:25 p.m.
#721
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Quoting: Nathaniel
I wouldnt split up Aston Reese - Kampf - Malgin. Rolling a third line of Kerfoot - Holmberg - Robertson could be fun


They haven't been so good that you can't try other things - especially when the only change is swapping the least impactful player on the line.
Nov. 18, 2022 at 10:23 p.m.
#722
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
Kinda wanna f*ck around and find out with this top 9:

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Jarnkrok - Tavares - Marner
Robertson - Kampf - Malgin


The third line is my only meh as ZAR-Kampf-Malgin has been good so splitting them up makes no sense

To me I feel we need to go find a 3c as Engvall and Kerfoot aint that
Nov. 18, 2022 at 10:26 p.m.
#723
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Quoting: aadoyle
The third line is my only meh as ZAR-Kampf-Malgin has been good so splitting them up makes no sense

To me I feel we need to go find a 3c as Engvall and Kerfoot aint that


Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
They haven't been so good that you can't try other things - especially when the only change is swapping the least impactful player on the line.
Nov. 18, 2022 at 10:27 p.m.
#724
Hakuna Matata
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
They haven't been so good that you can't try other things - especially when the only change is swapping the least impactful player on the line.


71cw5h.jpg">

Its been good enough to not split them up

Like the only other thing that may work but its risky

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Robertson-Tavares-Marner
Engvall-Kampf-Jarnkrok
ZAR-Holmberg-Malgin
Nov. 18, 2022 at 10:30 p.m.
#725
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Quoting: aadoyle
71cw5h.jpg">

Its been good enough to not split them up

Like the only other thing that may work but its risky

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Robertson-Tavares-Marner
Engvall-Kampf-Jarnkrok
ZAR-Holmberg-Malgin


Im not sure how but this image has destroyed the thread on mobile. Impressive
 
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