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Tarasenko to NYI

Jan. 25, 2023 at 8:42 a.m.
#26
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Quoting: Db1899
tears of joy - entering the zone with possession, fending off a defender without losing the puck and beating coverage has a lot more to do with the goal than a pinch. Anyone who is higher up in hockey or does anything regarding stats would give Wahlstorm most of the credit for "driving the play"


It was a nice play but I'm not overly impressed with a player who knows how to "shake-off" a defensemen. I see it every night. Without the defensemen recognizing the situation it doesn't happen and was just a nice play rather than a goal.
Jan. 25, 2023 at 9:05 a.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
It was a nice play but I'm not overly impressed with a player who knows how to "shake-off" a defensemen. I see it every night. Without the defensemen recognizing the situation it doesn't happen and was just a nice play rather than a goal.


It doesn’t matter if you are impressed, Wahlstrom is already one of the isles best players and is about 2x as valuable as Tarasenko this season .
Jan. 26, 2023 at 12:18 p.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
tears of joy - entering the zone with possession, fending off a defender without losing the puck and beating coverage has a lot more to do with the goal than a pinch. Anyone who is higher up in hockey or does anything regarding stats would give Wahlstorm most of the credit for "driving the play"


I'm not overly impressed by a player who knows how to "shake-off" a defensemen - I see it every night. Especially when that defensemen got caught in the neutral zone. Wahlstrom did the work but was able to do so because of the opposing defensemen's error. It was more of an error by the defense than a great play by the forward in my opinion. Both deserve credit but without the defensemen jumping into the play, Wahlstrom's work was for nothing. Anyone one who scout's has heard the saying "he knows when to jump into the play at the right time". If the defensemen isn't there he probably just cycles the puck. Terrible defense by the other team isn't being recognized.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 12:32 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I'm not overly impressed by a player who knows how to "shake-off" a defensemen - I see it every night. Especially when that defensemen got caught in the neutral zone. Wahlstrom did the work but was able to do so because of the opposing defensemen's error. It was more of an error by the defense than a great play by the forward in my opinion. Both deserve credit but without the defensemen jumping into the play, Wahlstrom's work was for nothing. Anyone one who scout's has heard the saying "he knows when to jump into the play at the right time". If the defensemen isn't there he probably just cycles the puck. Terrible defense by the other team isn't being recognized.


It would be nice if the mediocre Tarasenko could do that consistently. I thought he was a sniper? 10 goals in 35 games with top 6 min and elite linemates.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 1:50 p.m.
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It would be nice if the mediocre Tarasenko could do that consistently. I thought he was a sniper? 10 goals in 35 games with top 6 min and elite linemates.


I think Tarasenko has taken advantage of defensemen who are out of position more consistently than Wahlstrom ever will. That's why he has over 300 goals throughout his NHL career. Personally, it would be nice if Wahlstrom could average more than 12 minutes a season. I'd still consider Tarasenko to be a Sniper because he is effective from the perimeter, unlike Wahlstrom. I suppose you've never heard of a down year. He still has 29 points in 35 games making him an effective offensive player at the very least. Also, St Louis's GPG is currently ranked 19th in the league. So I wouldn't consider him being surrounded by elite linemates. I think you need to go back to school kid.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:01 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I think Tarasenko has taken advantage of defensemen who are out of position more consistently than Wahlstrom ever will. That's why he has over 300 goals throughout his NHL career. Personally, it would be nice if Wahlstrom could average more than 12 minutes a season. I'd still consider Tarasenko to be a Sniper because he is effective from the perimeter, unlike Wahlstrom. I suppose you've never heard of a down year. He still has 29 points in 35 games making him an effective offensive player at the very least. Also, St Louis's GPG is currently ranked 19th in the league. So I wouldn't consider him being surrounded by elite linemates. I think you need to go back to school kid.


Not this year he hasn’t. Tarasenko was an elite player in his prime, Wahlstrom will never be as good as Tarasenkos peak. What is a fact is that Wahlstrom is much better than Tarasenko this season and will provide more value in his age 23-25 seasons than Tarasenko in his age 32-34 seasons.

I suppose you’ve never heard of aging curves. Tarasenko is past his prime and will likely be nothing more than an average middle 6 winger going forward. He plays with Thomas and Buchnevich , two elite forwards. Are you implying that they aren’t? That’s a better combo than anything the isles have. What we do agree on is that it would be nice to see Wahlstrom average more than 12 min. Isles aren’t exactly known for their player development. Over the last 20 years, Wahlstrom has provided more value on a minute per minute basis than any other winger drafted by the isles in their age 20-22 season. Wahlstrom scores goals at a top 6 rate and he’s the isles best defensive forward.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:02 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I think Tarasenko has taken advantage of defensemen who are out of position more consistently than Wahlstrom ever will. That's why he has over 300 goals throughout his NHL career. Personally, it would be nice if Wahlstrom could average more than 12 minutes a season. I'd still consider Tarasenko to be a Sniper because he is effective from the perimeter, unlike Wahlstrom. I suppose you've never heard of a down year. He still has 29 points in 35 games making him an effective offensive player at the very least. Also, St Louis's GPG is currently ranked 19th in the league. So I wouldn't consider him being surrounded by elite linemates. I think you need to go back to school kid.


Tarasenko is what you call a passenger at this point in his career. He’s not a sniper because snipers do not have 10 goals in 35 games playing top 6 minutes with top line forwards.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:45 p.m.
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Not this year he hasn’t. Tarasenko was an elite player in his prime, Wahlstrom will never be as good as Tarasenkos peak. What is a fact is that Wahlstrom is much better than Tarasenko this season and will provide more value in his age 23-25 seasons than Tarasenko in his age 32-34 seasons.

I suppose you’ve never heard of aging curves. Tarasenko is past his prime and will likely be nothing more than an average middle 6 winger going forward. He plays with Thomas and Buchnevich , two elite forwards. Are you implying that they aren’t? That’s a better combo than anything the isles have. What we do agree on is that it would be nice to see Wahlstrom average more than 12 min. Isles aren’t exactly known for their player development. Over the last 20 years, Wahlstrom has provided more value on a minute per minute basis than any other winger drafted by the isles in their age 20-22 season. Wahlstrom scores goals at a top 6 rate and he’s the isles best defensive forward.


I disagree, 29 points in 35 games shows that he has. I don't think you can chalk that up from being around elite players. There has to be some accountability on Tarasenko for being good in order to get those numbers. Even with 10 goals in 35 games that puts him on pace for at least 22 goals (something Wahlstrom has never accomplished). I disagree with your "fact" and think Tarasenko still has a few good years left in him.

Yes, I have heard of ageing curves, however, some players can defy the ageing curve better than others. Typically players with good pedigree and an important thing called the Stanley Cup. If you read through the thread you will see that I already mention Tarasenko is regressing but I think he will give the NYI more offensive production - which is what they lack rather than a player who "does the work" like Wahlstrom. Their GPG and PP is at the bottom of the league and Tarasenko could help with those categories more than Wahlstrom could.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:51 p.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
Tarasenko is what you call a passenger at this point in his career. He’s not a sniper because snipers do not have 10 goals in 35 games playing top 6 minutes with top line forwards.


To a certain degree yes, but you can't have a team full of driver's. A good passenger is more valuable than you think and there are plenty of examples of that throughout the league.

And I don't consider Thomas or Buchnevich to be elite when comparing them to other team's best players. There are only a handful of elite players in the league in my opinion. Not a couple on every team.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:54 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I disagree, 29 points in 35 games shows that he has. I don't think you can chalk that up from being around elite players. There has to be some accountability on Tarasenko for being good in order to get those numbers. Even with 10 goals in 35 games that puts him on pace for at least 22 goals (something Wahlstrom has never accomplished). I disagree with your "fact" and think Tarasenko still has a few good years left in him.

Yes, I have heard of ageing curves, however, some players can defy the ageing curve better than others. Typically players with good pedigree and an important thing called the Stanley Cup. If you read through the thread you will see that I already mention Tarasenko is regressing but I think he will give the NYI more offensive production - which is what they lack rather than a player who "does the work" like Wahlstrom. Their GPG and PP is at the bottom of the league and Tarasenko could help with those categories more than Wahlstrom could.


Production is influenced by linemates, it's the biggest factor to consider when evaluating a players true offensive impact. Wahlstrom was actually on pace for 22 goals in his rookie season playing 4th line minutes against top competition.

the difference between my take and yours is mine is backed up with facts, there is no debating that tarasenko has a stronger offensive impact than wahlstrom this season.

OFF = overall offensive impact, where wahlstrom has tarasenko beat by a significant amount. Wahlstrom is not only better offensively , he's also better defensively, Hes about 4x as valuable as tarasenko

<a href=Screen-Shot-2023-01-26-at-2-52-10-PMupload images">
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:55 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
To a certain degree yes, but you can't have a team full of driver's. A good passenger is more valuable than you think and there are plenty of examples of that throughout the league.

And I don't consider Thomas or Buchnevich to be elite when comparing them to other team's best players. There are only a handful of elite players in the league in my opinion. Not a couple on every team.


they are both top line players, if tarasenko can't be effective with two top liners it means he is mediocre. Thomas is a top 20 center, buchnevich is a top 20 winger.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:57 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
To a certain degree yes, but you can't have a team full of driver's. A good passenger is more valuable than you think and there are plenty of examples of that throughout the league.

And I don't consider Thomas or Buchnevich to be elite when comparing them to other team's best players. There are only a handful of elite players in the league in my opinion. Not a couple on every team.


Tarasenko can't even produce at a higher rate than wahlstrom at even strength... Wahlstrom is the better goal scorer , chance creator and shot generator. You can't even argue this, wahlstrom provides a lot more value in terms of production and underlying numbers

G/60 stands for goals per 60 min , why isn't tarasenko ahead of wahlstrom if hes a sniper?
Screen-Shot-2023-01-26-at-2-55-59-PM">
Jan. 26, 2023 at 2:59 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I disagree, 29 points in 35 games shows that he has. I don't think you can chalk that up from being around elite players. There has to be some accountability on Tarasenko for being good in order to get those numbers. Even with 10 goals in 35 games that puts him on pace for at least 22 goals (something Wahlstrom has never accomplished). I disagree with your "fact" and think Tarasenko still has a few good years left in him.

Yes, I have heard of ageing curves, however, some players can defy the ageing curve better than others. Typically players with good pedigree and an important thing called the Stanley Cup. If you read through the thread you will see that I already mention Tarasenko is regressing but I think he will give the NYI more offensive production - which is what they lack rather than a player who "does the work" like Wahlstrom. Their GPG and PP is at the bottom of the league and Tarasenko could help with those categories more than Wahlstrom could.


just saw you said that tarasenko can help the isles PP - how?? He has been one of the worst PP players in the league this season.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 4:57 p.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
Production is influenced by linemates, it's the biggest factor to consider when evaluating a players true offensive impact. Wahlstrom was actually on pace for 22 goals in his rookie season playing 4th line minutes against top competition.

the difference between my take and yours is mine is backed up with facts, there is no debating that tarasenko has a stronger offensive impact than wahlstrom this season.

OFF = overall offensive impact, where wahlstrom has tarasenko beat by a significant amount. Wahlstrom is not only better offensively , he's also better defensively, Hes about 4x as valuable as tarasenko

Screen-Shot-2023-01-26-at-2-52-10-PMupload images">


Yes, production is influenced by teammates, I never said it isn't - but it's not everything. Individual performance is the biggest factor when evaluating a players offensive impact, not performance of their teammates - it's just related. This is why you can put an elite player anywhere in the lineup and they will produce regardless of their teammates. Yes, better teammates will lead to better production but individual ability is being overlooked.

I never said Wahlstrom wasn't on pace for 22 goals his rookie year. I said he has never had a 22 goal season. There's a difference between being on pace for something and actually achieving it. And look what happened the year after... typical sophomore slump and it was a bad one. How can you be so sure he won't regress next season? Also, he was primarily a 3rd liner his rookie season did not consistently play against top players (1st liners) and his ice time reflects that. Playing 4th line minutes shows he's not ready for more ice time - it's not a good thing. If he was consistently playing against top players he would get top minutes. That's just logic. I don't care if he can play against top players for 3 shifts - he has to be able to match them. To say he was playing 4th line minutes against top players is incorrect and contradicts itself.

It seems you don't understand that I'm drawing from facts as well. I'm not arguing who has the better "OFF" this season - which is subject to change but may not. I'm just saying I think Tarasenko can be more valuable from a production standpoint than Wahlstrom because of his previous success, not his current success. You're also not accounting that if Wahlstrom gets more ice time it's possible that his statistics will regress and that's why he doesn't get more ice time - it's because he is the most effective averaging 12 minutes a season.

If he is truly 4x more valuable than Tarasenko let's see if he gets 4x more money on his next contract.

I don't think you understand relativity or how to read in-between the lines.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 4:58 p.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
they are both top line players, if tarasenko can't be effective with two top liners it means he is mediocre. Thomas is a top 20 center, buchnevich is a top 20 winger.


I think he has been effective from a production standpoint. Thomas and Buch are middle of the pack. St. Louis has always been known for depth rather than having elite talent.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 4:59 p.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
just saw you said that tarasenko can help the isles PP - how?? He has been one of the worst PP players in the league this season.


I think he can bounce back next year.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 6:40 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
Yes, production is influenced by teammates, I never said it isn't - but it's not everything. Individual performance is the biggest factor when evaluating a players offensive impact, not performance of their teammates - it's just related. This is why you can put an elite player anywhere in the lineup and they will produce regardless of their teammates. Yes, better teammates will lead to better production but individual ability is being overlooked.

I never said Wahlstrom wasn't on pace for 22 goals his rookie year. I said he has never had a 22 goal season. There's a difference between being on pace for something and actually achieving it. And look what happened the year after... typical sophomore slump and it was a bad one. How can you be so sure he won't regress next season? Also, he was primarily a 3rd liner his rookie season did not consistently play against top players (1st liners) and his ice time reflects that. Playing 4th line minutes shows he's not ready for more ice time - it's not a good thing. If he was consistently playing against top players he would get top minutes. That's just logic. I don't care if he can play against top players for 3 shifts - he has to be able to match them. To say he was playing 4th line minutes against top players is incorrect and contradicts itself.

It seems you don't understand that I'm drawing from facts as well. I'm not arguing who has the better "OFF" this season - which is subject to change but may not. I'm just saying I think Tarasenko can be more valuable from a production standpoint than Wahlstrom because of his previous success, not his current success. You're also not accounting that if Wahlstrom gets more ice time it's possible that his statistics will regress and that's why he doesn't get more ice time - it's because he is the most effective averaging 12 minutes a season.

If he is truly 4x more valuable than Tarasenko let's see if he gets 4x more money on his next contract.

I don't think you understand relativity or how to read in-between the lines.


points are not the only thing that measures individual performance. If anything points lack a lot of context. There are many terrible forwards who put up respectable point totals. Tarasenko has regressed in every aspect of the game and he is barley providing positive value. He's a 3rd liner on a cup contender, average 3rd liner on other teams.

Analytics are a much better indicator of a players overall impact than your eye test. You haven't given me any facts, just your opinion. Players who produce and have strong analytics actually improve in a bigger role. Not getting top 6 ice time is actually a harder role than if he had more ice time. That has been proven many times with young forwards.

Your logic with ice time makes no sense. There are many young players who don't get the ice time they deserve,, what you are assuming is that every decision a coach makes is correct. Wahlstrom was playing against top competition but isles notoriously play their veterans forwards more than young players no matter how good the young forwards play.

That is not how contracts work, im sure you know that though. Tarasenko is at the end of his deal and on the decline, wahlstrom is an RFA with no arb rights.


Speaking of wahlstrom's sophomore slump, yes he did have one. Like almost all players do. This season on a minute per minute basis he's at the top of the league in terms of value. 20-21 was his rookie season where he played very well, then 21-22 sophomore slump and he shot up this season,. A normal development curve.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 6:41 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
Yes, production is influenced by teammates, I never said it isn't - but it's not everything. Individual performance is the biggest factor when evaluating a players offensive impact, not performance of their teammates - it's just related. This is why you can put an elite player anywhere in the lineup and they will produce regardless of their teammates. Yes, better teammates will lead to better production but individual ability is being overlooked.

I never said Wahlstrom wasn't on pace for 22 goals his rookie year. I said he has never had a 22 goal season. There's a difference between being on pace for something and actually achieving it. And look what happened the year after... typical sophomore slump and it was a bad one. How can you be so sure he won't regress next season? Also, he was primarily a 3rd liner his rookie season did not consistently play against top players (1st liners) and his ice time reflects that. Playing 4th line minutes shows he's not ready for more ice time - it's not a good thing. If he was consistently playing against top players he would get top minutes. That's just logic. I don't care if he can play against top players for 3 shifts - he has to be able to match them. To say he was playing 4th line minutes against top players is incorrect and contradicts itself.

It seems you don't understand that I'm drawing from facts as well. I'm not arguing who has the better "OFF" this season - which is subject to change but may not. I'm just saying I think Tarasenko can be more valuable from a production standpoint than Wahlstrom because of his previous success, not his current success. You're also not accounting that if Wahlstrom gets more ice time it's possible that his statistics will regress and that's why he doesn't get more ice time - it's because he is the most effective averaging 12 minutes a season.

If he is truly 4x more valuable than Tarasenko let's see if he gets 4x more money on his next contract.

I don't think you understand relativity or how to read in-between the lines.


it's so easy to just find this sh*t out man lol - speaking from opinion is such a flawed argument

Standing points above replacement measures how many points a player adds to their team compared to a league average player.

Screen-Shot-2023-01-26-at-6-21-10-PMcup with straw">
Jan. 26, 2023 at 6:46 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
Yes, production is influenced by teammates, I never said it isn't - but it's not everything. Individual performance is the biggest factor when evaluating a players offensive impact, not performance of their teammates - it's just related. This is why you can put an elite player anywhere in the lineup and they will produce regardless of their teammates. Yes, better teammates will lead to better production but individual ability is being overlooked.

I never said Wahlstrom wasn't on pace for 22 goals his rookie year. I said he has never had a 22 goal season. There's a difference between being on pace for something and actually achieving it. And look what happened the year after... typical sophomore slump and it was a bad one. How can you be so sure he won't regress next season? Also, he was primarily a 3rd liner his rookie season did not consistently play against top players (1st liners) and his ice time reflects that. Playing 4th line minutes shows he's not ready for more ice time - it's not a good thing. If he was consistently playing against top players he would get top minutes. That's just logic. I don't care if he can play against top players for 3 shifts - he has to be able to match them. To say he was playing 4th line minutes against top players is incorrect and contradicts itself.

It seems you don't understand that I'm drawing from facts as well. I'm not arguing who has the better "OFF" this season - which is subject to change but may not. I'm just saying I think Tarasenko can be more valuable from a production standpoint than Wahlstrom because of his previous success, not his current success. You're also not accounting that if Wahlstrom gets more ice time it's possible that his statistics will regress and that's why he doesn't get more ice time - it's because he is the most effective averaging 12 minutes a season.

If he is truly 4x more valuable than Tarasenko let's see if he gets 4x more money on his next contract.

I don't think you understand relativity or how to read in-between the lines.


wahlstroms Quality of competition % is 68% , meaning he has a more difficult role than 68% of the NHL forwards - These are facts.
Jan. 26, 2023 at 6:48 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I think he has been effective from a production standpoint. Thomas and Buch are middle of the pack. St. Louis has always been known for depth rather than having elite talent.



Thomas is a top 5 playmaking center in the NHL, buchnevich has been elite for 3 years. What in the world are you talking about.

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Jan. 26, 2023 at 6:48 p.m.
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Quoting: Haynezy
I think he can bounce back next year.


there's nothing in his numbers that was suggest thats possible. He's on the downside of his career.
Jan. 27, 2023 at 7:54 a.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
Thomas is a top 5 playmaking center in the NHL, buchnevich has been elite for 3 years. What in the world are you talking about.

Screen-Shot-2023-01-26-at-6-47-43-PMpencil emojis">


It's my opinion man.
Jan. 27, 2023 at 7:55 a.m.
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Quoting: Db1899
there's nothing in his numbers that was suggest thats possible. He's on the downside of his career.


Okay, let's see what happens.
 
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