SalarySwishSalarySwish
Forums/Armchair-GM

Double Dipping on Retention

Created by: TML_GM
Team: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Feb. 8, 2023
Published: Feb. 8, 2023
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Let's look at some double retention fun today.

Keep in mind that when dealing with pending UFAs retention isn't going to cost a team as much as it would for players with multiple years remaining on their contract. Unused retention slots become useless after the deadline until the following season, so leveraging them is an opportunity for the team retaining to incentivize a trade, increase value (slightly), and increase the number of potential trade partners for high cap hit players.

Also keep in mind that in terms of actual dollar cost for retention/double retention the cap hit is often less important than the actual salary remaining (excluding bonuses, which have already been paid at this point) for both the first and second retaining team.

As an example, pending UFA Johnathan Toews has a 10.5M cap hit, however this final year of his contract consisted of a 4 million dollar signing bonus (already paid) and then 2.9M in actual salary. At the TDL (61 of 82 games played), he will have been paid roughly 2.15M of that remaining 2.9M, leaving only ~750K of actual salary remaining. This means that if Chicago retains 50%, it only costs them the retention spot + ~375K in real dollars while bringing his cap hit down to 5.25M. If Chicago moves him to another team for additional 50% retention as a broker in the deal, CHI still pays ~375K, the retaining broker team pays ~187.5K (and retains 2.625M in cap space) and the final acquiring team pays ~187.5K (with a cap hit for Toews of 2.625M).

With this in mind, you are only paying the broker team assets to cover ~187.5K in salary costs + use of their retention slot. This is not an obscene ask, especially for a team that might be offloading assets already with unused retention slots who is still attempting to reach the cap floor without paying full salary (think rebuilding cash strapped teams such as ARZ, ANA, CLB as well as retooling teams that aren't necessarily cash strapped but near the floor or offloading high priced players such as CHI, DET, OTT, SJ.

Unfortunately Armchair GM doesn't handle double retention trades yet, but here is just one example from the Leafs' perspective.


Notes:
- I know STL fans think they will get a 1st+ for O'Reilly based on reputation, but given performance and injury I think this type of return (2nd + 3rd + B prospect) is more likely.
- I also know that acquiring two veteran players with declining numbers that have been battling injuries is not necessarily ideal. (This is just an example of double retention lowering costs, not necessarily what I think is best.)
- I also know that ARZ fans think any Chychrun deal with Toronto needs to include their hometown boy Matthew Knies, but I don't think Kyle moves him. Including Sandin gives them a 22 year old immediate NHL-level replacement at a lower cost with potential to grow in an elevated role under team control.
- I also know that Knies may not be NHL ready this year, let alone ready for 3rd line minutes in the playoffs, however given that he is 20, man-sized, and doing great in the NCAA, I like the idea of pairing him with O'Reilly to give him some playoff pedigree to lean on on the 3rd line.
- This lineup has great C depth that should win most face-off battles in the playoffs. It also has the potential to spread out scoring more over 3 lines if needed by pairing one of Nylander, Marner, or Kane with O'Reilly to match match-ups a nightmare, especially for 3rd pairing D


Have a good one everyone!
Free Agent Signings
RESERVE LISTYEARSCAP HIT
3$925,000
CREATEDYEARSCAP HIT
OReilly, Ryan
1$1,850,000
Kane, Patrick
1$2,625,000
Trades
1.
TOR
    O'Reilly with 50% retention from STL + brokered through ANA

    Note: O'Reilly's post-bonus salary this season is 1M with ~260K left to pay out at the TDL. STL retains half of that actual salary (130K) and half the cap hit (3.75M) via a trade to ANA as a broker team as part of the deal.

    ANA then flips him to TOR at another 50% retained, costing them the use of 1 of their retention slots, 65K in salary, and 1.85M on their cap.
    STL
    1. Voit, Ty
    2. 2023 3rd round pick (OTT)
    3. 2024 2nd round pick (TOR)
    2.
    TOR
      For brokering the second 50% retention on O'Reilly.

      Cost to ANA:
      - Use of 1 of their retention slots until the end of this season
      - 65K in salary
      - 1.85M added to their cap

      NOTE: Anaheim could be any team in a position to retain at low cost.
      ANA
      1. 2024 4th round pick (TOR)
      2. 2024 6th round pick (TOR)
      3.
      TOR
        Patrick Kane at 50% retention (cap retained 5.25M - | TDL salary remaining retained ~375K.

        Brokered through another team (OTT) at an additional 50% retained (cap retained - 2.125M | remaining salary retained ~187.5K).
        CHI
        1. Hirvonen, Roni
        2. Kerfoot, Alexander
        3. 2023 1st round pick (TOR)
        Additional Details:
        Note, Kerfoot has a cap of 3.5M, but only roughly 195K in salary remaining for the season at the TDL. He can help a team reach the floor at a low cost. He doesn't need to go to Chicago, but adding him here for convenience to free up more cap for TOR.
        4.
        TOR
          For brokering the second 50% retention on O'Reilly.

          Cost to OTT:
          - Use of 1 of their retention slots until the end of this season
          - 187.5K in salary
          - 2.625M added to their cap (sorry had a typo in the cap in the Kane trade, this is the correct cap)

          NOTE: Ottawa could be any team in a position to retain at low cost.
          OTT
          1. 2023 6th round pick (TOR)
          2. 2024 7th round pick (OTT)
          3. 2025 4th round pick (TOR)
          5.
          TOR
          1. Chychrun, Jakob
          2. Mayo, Dysin
          Additional Details:
          Not a salary retention, but instead an additional hockey trade made possible by the added cap.

          Note: Mayo makes a full 1M a year for the next two years and has been in the minors making that full NHL salary all year for ARZ. He is a salary dump to Toronto that can afford to pay him that to play in the AHL.
          ARI
          1. Abruzzese, Nick
          2. Sandin, Rasmus
          3. 2024 1st round pick (TOR)
          Additional Details:
          Equivalent of the ask of a 1st, young player from the 1st round, and a B-C level prospect (more C, but taking the Mayo salary to compensate)
          DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
          2023
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          2024
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          2025
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          Logo of the TOR
          ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
          21$82,500,000$82,396,246$212,500$0$103,754

          Roster

          Left WingCentreRight Wing
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $950,000$950,000
          LW
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $11,640,250$11,640,250
          C
          UFA - 2
          Kane, Patrick
          $2,625,000$2,625,000
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $6,962,366$6,962,366
          RW
          UFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $11,000,000$11,000,000
          C, LW
          NMC
          UFA - 3
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $10,903,000$10,903,000
          RW
          UFA - 3
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $925,000$925,000
          LW, RW
          RFA - 3
          OReilly, Ryan
          $1,850,000$1,850,000
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $2,100,000$2,100,000
          RW, C, LW
          M-NTC
          UFA - 4
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $840,630$840,630
          LW, RW
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $1,500,000$1,500,000
          C
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $2,250,000$2,250,000
          RW, LW
          UFA - 1
          Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $7,500,000$7,500,000
          LD
          NMC
          UFA - 8
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $5,000,000$5,000,000
          LD/RD
          NTC
          UFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $1,800,000$1,800,000
          G
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Arizona Coyotes
          $4,600,000$4,600,000
          LD/RD
          UFA - 3
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $1,400,000$1,400,000
          RD
          RFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $4,687,500$4,687,500
          G
          M-NTC
          UFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $2,000,000$2,000,000
          RD
          M-NTC
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $800,000$800,000
          LD
          UFA - 2
          ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $850,000$850,000
          RD
          RFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $5,625,000$5,625,000
          LD
          NTC
          UFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $796,667$796,667
          LW, RW
          RFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $750,000$750,000
          LD/RD
          UFA - 1
          Taxi Squad
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $827,500$827,500 ($0$0$0$0)
          C, LW
          RFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $762,500$762,500 ($0$0$0$0)
          LW, RW
          UFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $750,000$750,000 ($0$0$0$0)
          RW
          RFA - 1
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $762,500$762,500 ($0$0$0$0)
          RW, LW
          UFA - 2
          Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
          $750,000$750,000 ($0$0$0$0)
          LD/RD
          UFA - 1

          Embed Code

          • To display this team on another website or blog, add this iFrame to the appropriate page
          • Customize the height attribute in the iFrame code below to fit your website appropriately. Minimum recommended: 400px.

          Text-Embed

          Click to Highlight
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 4:25 p.m.
          #1
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Dec. 2022
          Posts: 2,832
          Likes: 1,443
          The level of backlash Armstrong would get for this sort of return would be immense.

          If this is the price you’re looking to pay. Shop for Toews instead.

          Blues are better off working an extension on ROR and or biting the bullet of the possibility of him walking. There’s no protection on ROR, it’s a very minimal salary. There’s very little reason he shouldn’t return a 1st.
          mokumboi liked this.
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 4:33 p.m.
          #2
          Thread Starter
          Armchair GM Addict
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Mar. 2016
          Posts: 214
          Likes: 28
          Quoting: AC14
          The level of backlash Armstrong would get for this sort of return would be immense.

          If this is the price you’re looking to pay. Shop for Toews instead.

          Blues are better off working an extension on ROR and or biting the bullet of the possibility of him walking. There’s no protection on ROR, it’s a very minimal salary. There’s very little reason he shouldn’t return a 1st.


          I respectfully disagree based on his performance and injury this season as I mentioned in my comments. That said, if I were a Blues fan, I would certainly be of a similar opinion of the value of my captain, playoff MVP (many years removed now), and heart and soul type player. While several years older, Toews has out performed O'Reilly this season and I would expect similar values for both at the TDL. On the plus side, if the return comes in lower than the STL fanbase hopes, there is always the opportunity to re-sign him in the off season after the trade and still enjoy your bag of picks and prospects. smile
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 4:40 p.m.
          #3
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Dec. 2022
          Posts: 2,832
          Likes: 1,443
          Quoting: TML_GM
          I respectfully disagree based on his performance and injury this season as I mentioned in my comments. That said, if I were a Blues fan, I would certainly be of a similar opinion of the value of my captain, playoff MVP (many years removed now), and heart and soul type player. While several years older, Toews has out performed O'Reilly this season and I would expect similar values for both at the TDL. On the plus side, if the return comes in lower than the STL fanbase hopes, there is always the opportunity to re-sign him in the off season after the trade and still enjoy your bag of picks and prospects. smile


          Those picks and prospect likely amount to nothing. Why take the risk.

          Many years removed isn’t necessarily true. It’s been 3 years. He still performed at a PPG pace last playoffs. I think you severely underestimate how good ROR has been as recently as 8 months ago and I also think you’re outlandishly outlining a foot injury and a lack of a competent defensive system and personnel that the Blues currently have.

          Neither of us truely know. But if this is the return for ROR. Armstrongn should be fired this off-season.

          Voit is producing in juniors currently which is nice. I’m not sure I view him as a solid B prospect though. I don’t think you realize how unappealing two picks around 58 and 70 sound. It’s long shot territory. And it’s generally 5+ years out territory. This direction ensures that we waste Kyrou and Thomas’ prime. It’s generally not much better than letting him walk if we can’t re-sign him.
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 5:01 p.m.
          #4
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Apr. 2021
          Posts: 2,173
          Likes: 1,000
          Drop abruzzese, add knies, and you’ve now got a deal. You’re not getting chychrun without knies in the deal, flat out
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 5:02 p.m.
          #5
          Seiders on the Storm
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: May 2020
          Posts: 9,890
          Likes: 7,764
          Sens_Sicko liked this.
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 5:07 p.m.
          #6
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Aug. 2021
          Posts: 362
          Likes: 256
          I think this is they type of trade that is realistic if Toews decides he would like to be traded. I still think (hoping) he's staying in Chicago.
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 6:49 p.m.
          #7
          mokumboi
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Apr. 2019
          Posts: 29,506
          Likes: 11,419
          Quoting: TML_GM
          I respectfully disagree based on his performance and injury this season as I mentioned in my comments. That said, if I were a Blues fan, I would certainly be of a similar opinion of the value of my captain, playoff MVP (many years removed now), and heart and soul type player. While several years older, Toews has out performed O'Reilly this season and I would expect similar values for both at the TDL. On the plus side, if the return comes in lower than the STL fanbase hopes, there is always the opportunity to re-sign him in the off season after the trade and still enjoy your bag of picks and prospects. smile



          How many times have you watched the Blues play this season?
          Feb. 8, 2023 at 6:50 p.m.
          #8
          mokumboi
          Avatar of the user
          Joined: Apr. 2019
          Posts: 29,506
          Likes: 11,419
          Quoting: AC14
          Those picks and prospect likely amount to nothing. Why take the risk.

          Many years removed isn’t necessarily true. It’s been 3 years. He still performed at a PPG pace last playoffs. I think you severely underestimate how good ROR has been as recently as 8 months ago and I also think you’re outlandishly outlining a foot injury and a lack of a competent defensive system and personnel that the Blues currently have.

          Neither of us truely know. But if this is the return for ROR. Armstrongn should be fired this off-season.

          Voit is producing in juniors currently which is nice. I’m not sure I view him as a solid B prospect though. I don’t think you realize how unappealing two picks around 58 and 70 sound. It’s long shot territory. And it’s generally 5+ years out territory. This direction ensures that we waste Kyrou and Thomas’ prime. It’s generally not much better than letting him walk if we can’t re-sign him.


          Voit is another Bracco, but way smaller and a worse skater. This offer is obviously a clown show.
           
          Reply
          To create a post please Login or Register
          Question:
          Options:
          Add Option
          Submit Poll