No you can't build around and position. Columbus is the most recent example of trying to build around wingers and it didn't work.

I and no other Jet can that I have seen had asked for a king's ransom in exchange for Dubois. That is just you exaggerating so that again you have a point to debate.

The plain simply fact is that Jets fans for the most part have just asked for and expected a fair return and just point out that deals like the above that are completely slanted in Montreal's favour aren't likely to interest Winnipeg, when they will most likely have better offers to choose from.

You may not realize in your anger and haste to make your point, that trading is a two way street. Winnipeg has something Montreal wants, so they need to offer Winnipeg something they want, or Winnipeg just looks elsewhere.

It's not likely going to be a deal where Montreal gets all the clauses in their favour and only gives up the prospects and picks they no longer want and Winnipeg just goes ahead and takes it. They'd just move on to a more suitable offer. That's what I meant about educating yourself on how trades work.

Meh... I wouldn't keep going. You can find many other people in various threads saying the same thing about him that I just said. People like that usually aren't worth going that deep for.

What...? They are amidst a rebuild. When did they ever "build around wingers"?



My brother in christ you are in every Winnipeg thread ripping on anything that doesn't go your way or isnt a massive overpayment. Open your profile and scroll down your replies.




I was simply making an argument solely based on value. The trade proposed above is not very far off from what Dubois would get you.
In reality, AGAIN.... you're looking at

1st
B+ tier prospect
Young roster player

OR

1st
two 2nds (see chychrun trade)

Even then, the Habs can just wait till PLD walks to FA in a few years... which we all know he will lmao.

He can walk in FA at the end of next year, so Habs just have to wait 15 months to sign him.

Oh man, and you were doing so good lately. I've backedmy position with actual facts and statistics without twisting them as others are trying to do.

We're not talking about points in the rarity department, we were taking about position.

Every single person who had ever watched hockey knows that 1C is the hardest position in hockey to filll, because real 1Cs are the rarest players to find. Winger by comparison is the easiest position to fill. So when you have two that historically produce roughly the same the center is always more valuable.

I'm worried about you my friend. You really seen to have taken this PLD stuff to seriously and are losing objectively when you were doing so well lately. Sorry if I touched a nerve. I'll leave you to debate and dream with the other guys.

I'd argue that good, top pairing dmen is the hardest position to properly fill.
I think you're the one dreaming LMAO

Everyone in their right minds knows that a top pairing RHD is the hardest position to fill.



There is only about 40% of NHL defensemen shoot RH, of the 310 NHL D men who played last season only 130 were right-handed. Of those 130 only 90 played more than 30 NHL games, so 40 were callups for injuries and such, of those 90 only 50 played more than 20 minutes a night (those are your top 4 D men). Of those 50 only 26 put up more than 30 points (the minimum threshold for top pairing D men) There were 31 center's around the league with at least 60 points last season PLD ranked 29th on that list. So when you look at just the positions top pairing RHD (26) and top line center's (31) the rarest position in hockey is a top pairing RHD not a top line center.

That's not what NHL scouts say. The hardest position to fill is 1C, 2nd hardest 1 RHD. However, whichever way you want to take it, it really doesn't matter as we're both saying the same thing as you'll notice "wing" isn't on the top of either list. PLD as a 1C that produces the same as a older winger, while playing a more demanding position is obviously more valuable, even though that doesn't suit the narrative you and your ill- informed compatriot are trying to create here.

Dang it. You dragged me back into this and I was going to leave you guys to it. Now, I'm out and leaving you to it.

Except that you are not taking into account the point production, a 60-70 point center has equal value to a 80+ point winger. Unless you think Conner and Kaprizov have less value than Suzuki, which IMO is not true I think their value is basically the same.

Except you're doing the same thing your compatriot was doing because you have nothing factual that supports your position. Twisting and cherry picking stats to try and add credence to your flawed position.

Both Meier and Dubois average 57 points per season in their careers so far. With PLD having 55 points this year and Meier 52. Why does Meier, while being 2 years older all of a sudden become an 80+ point producer while the younger Dubois is going to top out as a 60-70 point center? Could it be because unless you inflate Meier's numbers you don't have an argument?

So, even though Meier is older he's guaranteed to increase his historical production by a minimum of 23 points a season, while Dubois while being younger will be lucky if he increases between 3 and 13 points. Can you see how you are slipping back into your old heavily biased stance?

But even if we entertain your "tilted to favour Meier" stats. A younger 70 point center is more valuable than an 80 point winger every day and twice on Sunday. A center can play wing, most wingers can't play center.

Now, if you're ready to discuss things with a level playing field to compare players, I can discuss with you, but if you want to continue on down the cherry picked and inflated stats route, then just carry on and leave me out.

I never made a comp to Meier at all, I used Fiala who did put up 80+ points and is on pace to do it again, Fiala was only 1 year older than PLD is now at the time as well. I also never said PLD wouldn't become an 80 point player but you don't pay for future points you pay for what a player has done recently (the last 3-5 years) and PLD right now is a 60-70 point player. My argument with you was simply that a 60-70 point top 6 center is not the rarest thing in hockey and now it's also that center's are not necessarily more valuable than wingers. If you compare similar point players at similar ages then yes you are correct but that was not what I said at all. I said an 80+ point winger (Fiala) has the same value as a 60-70 point center (Dubois), which is true. Your statement was winger's are less valuable than center's, which basically means you are saying that Marner is less valuable than Suzuki, that Marchand is less valuable than PLD and that M. Tkachuk is less valuable than Barbashev, none of those statements are true though.

I said that comparable centers are more valuable than comparable wingers. If they are within 10 points of each other or so, the center is more valuable. If you are comparing an elite winger to a Suzuki type center then it likely goes to the winger in a vacuum, but would also depend greatly on contract and team needs.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on Fiala though as he isn't a comparable for Dubois in trade value. Fiala was traded in a distress situation from a team that had no possible way of keeping him without moving significant pieces resulting in Minnesota just needing to move him for the best offer that they could get. With Fiala being a winger it would also be a reasonable extrapolation that he would have gotten more, even in the distressed situation as a center, likely due to demand.

Winnipeg has no issues cap wise that prevent them from signing Dubois, hence Fiala isn't a comparable. Horvat and Meier are the best comparables being more recent, with Horvat being an upcoming UFA center coming off a career year (Dubois having an extra full year makes him more valuable) and Meier, while a winger and older being in the exact same contract position as Dubois, although with a worse QO but with a few months more team control when traded.

So WIN would accept a 1st pick in 2024,also conditional by all means and Beck who's a good prospect but as yet to be a solid proven player.

If the GM does this trade he'll be lynched by the media, the fans and by noon his car will be on fire.

Cheveldayoff hangs up with a "Hey, guys.. come here.. I just got a prank call by someone pretending to be Hugues in MTL, wait 'till you hear this..."

I apologise I missed where you said comparable points, I read it as you were saying no matter what a 60 point center was more valuable than a winger.

The Wild did have to trade Fiala due to cap constraints but saying that the Jets don't have to trade PLD is not entirely accurate, the Jets absolutely have to trade PLD if they don't want him to walk for free in FA. PLD has already expressed his interest in testing FA and has already said he does not wish to sign long-term in Winnipeg. So the Jets do have to trade PLD unless they want to get nothing for him, which I do not think is a reasonable assumption. PLD will be traded in a distress situation from a team that knows they have no possible way of keeping him past 2023-24. The Jets will be needing to move him for the best offer that they can get or they lose him for nothing, time is the enemy for the Jets. Also the fact that most teams (I would say 80-90% of the league) aren't going to trade significant assets (2 1sts +) for a guy they know is rumored to only be willing to sign long-term in Montreal. Even at next year's deadline the max that a team will pay for a rental is a 1st + maybe a 2nd more likely a 3rd or B prospect. The Jets simply do not have the leverage you believe they do. There likely won't be as large of a market as you think there will be.

I suppose you think the Jets should get the Habs 2023 1st + the Cat's 2023 1st + Suzuki + Caufield + Dach + Guhle + Hutson + the Habs 2024 1st + the Habs and Flames 2025 1st's as well right. Look recent history shows that the proposed trade is fair value, Horvat got Beauvillier + Raty + what will likely be the 17-20th pick, Beck is similar value to Raty and the 2024 1st in the range of 11-16th is similar value to the 2023 17-20th pick. Now if you want we can throw in Hoffman as well since his value is similar to Beauvillier and they expire in the same year. You are not however getting 2 1st's ++++ for PLD.

Once again, you are assuming a few things that outright, blatantly false.

PLD has NEVER said he would not resign in Winnipeg. Only that he wants to get to UFA to evaluate things then before he signs long-term anywhere.

Why would the Jets trade him to a team that will only have him for one year? With the information we have now, Dubois has said that winning is the most important thing, there will be plenty of teams that will be interested in him and where he is willing to extend long-term. The Jets will just trade him to one of those teams. It won't be for full value, but should still be a fair return.

Dubois has NEVER said he is only willing to sign long-term in Montreal. Hockey is a business and PLD wants to make money, as evidenced by wanting to get to UFA to maximize his earning potential. You're fooling yourself if you think that when some US team with great weather, lifestyle and a better tax situation tells his agent they're willing to pay him this much, that he's going to tell them to pound sand, I'm going to Montreal for whatever they deem is fair to pay me. Of all the things that are possibilities, that is right at the very bottom verging on almost completely improbable.

Dubois actually came out and said that his agent's comments were overblown by media and fans.

Dubois HAS said though that winning is the most important thing to him. That being the case would mean Montreal will be on the outside looking in at a PLD deal.

I'm not saying It's impossible that he ends up in Montreal, just that it is highly unlikely based on the facts and actual statements we have from Dubois at this time that Montreal is the only place he wants to play.

You realize that PLD is under contract and therefore can not confirm what his agent says, he has to do damage control for fear of reprisal from the Jets. The Jets can literally sue him for breach of contract if he says he confirms anything his agent has said. BTW, you think his agent just came out and said all of this on his own without PLD's knowledge or consent? That would also be a breach of contract/privacy issue with his client. PLD's agent himself said PLD wants to be in Montreal as soon as possible, that was not blown out of proportion from the media, he actually said it. He also said PLD would not sign long-term in Winnipeg, that again is not something an agent can just make up without his client's knowledge.

I also never said it was only Montreal, I said "Also the fact that most teams (I would say 80-90% of the league) aren't going to trade significant assets (2 1sts +) for a guy they know is rumored to only be willing to sign long-term in Montreal."

If you were the GM of an NHL team and Quinn Hughes was a pending RFA with only 1 year remaining of team control and you were hearing rumors (from his agent) that he will not sign a long-term deal with the Canucks and that he wanted to test FA (from his agent) and that he would only sign long-term in NJ (from the media), would you trade more than a 2024 1st + B prospect for a guy you figure is only a rental? I wouldn't especially if I was the GM of the Devils and was trying to rebuild the team myself.

So, you're saying we need to believe what PLD's agent said and twist that "rumour" to mean he will ONLY sign long term in Montreal because that supports your position, but we have to ignore things the PLD actually said, because they don't support your position. Even though PLD only being willing to sign in Montreal hasn't been reported anywhere, outside of fans making assumptions on message boards as you are doing here? Okay, I see where you're going.

You'd have to show me the quote where PLD or his agent staff he would not sign long term in Winnipeg. Because the only one I have heard was from PLD himself saying that he has no issues with signing in Winnipeg. But we're supposed to ignore that because PLD actually said it and it doesn't support your position, correct?

Why would teams gamble on whether or not PLD will resign with them. Chevy would allow then to talk to his agent, so they'll know if he is willing to resign or not. I'd he's willing to resign, the price goes up. It's absolutely silly to think that Winnipeg would not allow teams to talk to him if they think it will raise the price.

Anyways, I see where you're coming from. You want to believe assumptions you have made on the situation are 100% correct and choose to ignore the actual reality of the situation and the factual information available to us. Have at it, we can't progress constructively if we need to ignore reality and base the discussion on illogical assumptions.