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Controversial who is better

Created by: Juiceman
Team: 2022-23 Custom Team
Initial Creation Date: Mar. 27, 2023
Published: Mar. 27, 2023
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
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My picks are the players on the left side. I am willing to justify my picks
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Mar. 27, 2023 at 6:31 p.m.
#26
mokumboi
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Hughes over Heiskanen??? Bruh..
Mar. 27, 2023 at 6:44 p.m.
#27
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Quoting: mokumboi
Hughes over Heiskanen??? Bruh..


Heiskanen has been very mediocre this season. Hughes on the other hand is having a monster season breaking franchise records, and NHL records. Hughes has been much better offensively, and somehow even better defensively than Heiskanen this season. Sure Heiskanen has been the better defensive player over their career, but Hughes clears. If Heiskanen were having a good season I could see the argument, but right now Hughes is better and it isn't close this season
Mar. 27, 2023 at 6:53 p.m.
#28
Analytics are good
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Makar
Heiskanen (closer than it seems though)
Josi (by a hair, Hedman has not been good this year)
Morrissey
Lindholm
McAvoy
Robertson
Hughes (there is a legitimate case to be made for Pettersson though)
Tkachuk
Horvat (toss-up)
Matthews
Kucherov
Stamkos (but it's close)
Mar. 27, 2023 at 6:54 p.m.
#29
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman
Heiskanen has been very mediocre this season. Hughes on the other hand is having a monster season breaking franchise records, and NHL records. Hughes has been much better offensively, and somehow even better defensively than Heiskanen this season. Sure Heiskanen has been the better defensive player over their career, but Hughes clears. If Heiskanen were having a good season I could see the argument, but right now Hughes is better and it isn't close this season


Yeeeah, I have no earthly idea where you got the idea that Heiskanen has been mediocre this season, or how you got the idea that Hughes has been "much better" offensively, and suggesting he's been better defensively... I don't even know what to say to that. That's all just kooky stuff.

Hey, you can argue Hughes is better in the moment or whatever, but to imagine it's not even close... dude. C'mon.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 6:59 p.m.
#30
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Quoting: mokumboi
Yeeeah, I have no earthly idea where you got the idea that Heiskanen has been mediocre this season, or how you got the idea that Hughes has been "much better" offensively, and suggesting he's been better defensively... I don't even know what to say to that. That's all just kooky stuff.

Hey, you can argue Hughes is better in the moment or whatever, but to imagine it's not even close... dude. C'mon.


This season, yeah it isn't close. Sure Heiskanen has a lot of points, but his underlying numbers a very mediocre compared to his norm. Clearly you didn't bother doing any further research so I'll give you some insight

Heiskanen
EVO: 4
EVD: -1.9
Off: 7
Def: -0.3
GAR: 8.3
WAR: 1.4

Hughes
EVO: 14.9
EVD: 3.7
Off: 16.3
Def: 1.5
GAR: 20.1
WAR: 3.4

Heiskanen is really not having the year people think. His offense is decent, however Hughes simply clears in that category. Hughes creates much more offense than Heiskanen and it shows. I didn't think I would be saying this, however Hughes has also somehow been a lot better defensively this season. I don't know what is going on with Heiskanen, but his defense is below replacement level at the moment. Obviously he is better than that, but it just goes to show the seasons both of them are having. These are stats, not opinions
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:05 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: Stammer_Time91
That's an ignorant statement


Says a Tampa fan
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:11 p.m.
#32
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman
This season, yeah it isn't close. Sure Heiskanen has a lot of points, but his underlying numbers a very mediocre compared to his norm. Clearly you didn't bother doing any further research so I'll give you some insight

Heiskanen
EVO: 4
EVD: -1.9
Off: 7
Def: -0.3
GAR: 8.3
WAR: 1.4

Hughes
EVO: 14.9
EVD: 3.7
Off: 16.3
Def: 1.5
GAR: 20.1
WAR: 3.4

Heiskanen is really not having the year people think. His offense is decent, however Hughes simply clears in that category. Hughes creates much more offense than Heiskanen and it shows. I didn't think I would be saying this, however Hughes has also somehow been a lot better defensively this season. I don't know what is going on with Heiskanen, but his defense is below replacement level at the moment. Obviously he is better than that, but it just goes to show the seasons both of them are having. These are stats, not opinions


Ha! Research, huh? Setting aside that I have no idea where these numbers come from, I have a newsflash for you: these analytics you've picked are not subjective stats. They're based on formulas chosen by the maker. And do you know what really shows a season a player is having? Watching hockey, because pretty much all stats require context. Then, at the same time, you claim 69 points is sooo much better than 62 points, though the 69-point guy has all of three more 5v5 points than the 62-point guy. I think your depth perception is off, buddy.

Best of all, though: Heisky's defense is below replacement level now - this just gets more hilarious by the minute. Meanwhile, never mind that Heiskanen has spent most of this season lugging around the rotting corpse of Suter...
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:16 p.m.
#33
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Quoting: mokumboi
Ha! Research, huh? Setting aside that I have no idea where these numbers come from, I have a newsflash for you: these analytics you've picked are not subjective stats. They're based on formulas chosen by the maker. And do you know what really shows a season a player is having? Watching hockey, because pretty much all stats require context.

Heisky's defense is below replacement level now - this just gets more hilarious by the minute. Meanwhile, never mind that Heiskanen has spent most of this season lugging around the rotting corpse of Suter...


These starts are pulled from evolving hockey which is the most relied upon source of analytics for hockey. I didn't just make these numbers out of nowhere. Also please don't pretend that you watch all 82 games of the Canucks and Stars, because if you don't, then you have no reliablility using the eye test. Also, you need to familiarize yourself with the term subjective and objective because you just used them incorrectly to prove my point. You're right. These analytics AREN'T subjective. They are objective; based on facts. If you are going to argue against an entire analytical model then I won't be bothered to continue this discussion any further. I made a claim, backed it up with facts. Perhaps you should consider doing the same. As for your final statement, don't act like Hughes isn't carrying around the walking graveyard of the Vancouver Canucks' defense core
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:31 p.m.
#34
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Quoting: Juiceman
That is an extremely poor argument bud. I presented the facts, you didn't like them, and no you are resorting to this? Dissapointing.


in pettersson's division is 4 of the 5 worst save % teams in hockey. only 1 team (vegas) is above average.
In hughes division is 5 top half teams in save % (including Igor and Sorokin and the canes). and only philly (with carter hart who's great) and CBJ below average.

in goals against:
3 of the top 5 teams in hockey are in the metro (not counting NJD)

9 points against the poverty ducks (worst defensive team in hockey).

1.65 ppg vs the pacific, 1.17 vs everyone else
only 0.4 goals a game when he isn't playing the pacific.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:32 p.m.
#35
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman
These starts are pulled from evolving hockey which is the most relied upon source of analytics for hockey. I didn't just make these numbers out of nowhere. Also please don't pretend that you watch all 82 games of the Canucks and Stars, because if you don't, then you have no reliablility using the eye test. Also, you need to familiarize yourself with the term subjective and objective because you just used them incorrectly to prove my point. You're right. These analytics AREN'T subjective. They are objective; based on facts. If you are going to argue against an entire analytical model then I won't be bothered to continue this discussion any further. I made a claim, backed it up with facts. Perhaps you should consider doing the same. As for your final statement, don't act like Hughes isn't carrying around the walking graveyard of the Vancouver Canucks' defense core



Oh cool! So analytics, otherwise known as on-ice stats, otherwise known as NOT individual stats. And again: analytic stats are NOT "facts" in the way you want to use them. They are entirely subjective, as the formula maker decides what is important to count, and how much it counts for, and what is not - that is SUBJECTIVE. Subjective AND not individual AND based on an analytic stat that is highly faulty. But do you really think that picking one particular analytic site makes your argument bulletproof? Not only are you "judging" purely by Heiskanen's analytic stats as seen by ONE formula out of many (I'll assume you;ve seen Hughes play plenty), but nooooo, one does not have to watch every single minute of the whole season or their eye test opinion is completely invalid. That is not at all how it works, and precisely something someone who never watches one of the players would say in desperation because they know reading an analytic stat sheet does not tell them with precision how a player has played.

Oh, and Hughes spent the most time this season with Schenn (how do you imagine one plays with the whole defense exactly?), who is obviously a defensive specialist and nothing else. Gosh, maybe that had something to do with his defense analytics perking up finally...

You like the Canucks best, we get it.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:34 p.m.
#36
mokumboi
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Quoting: dgibb10
in pettersson's division is 4 of the 5 worst save % teams in hockey. only 1 team (vegas) is above average.
In hughes division is 5 top half teams in save % (including Igor and Sorokin and the canes). and only philly (with carter hart who's great) and CBJ below average.

in goals against:
3 of the top 5 teams in hockey are in the metro (not counting NJD)

9 points against the poverty ducks (worst defensive team in hockey).

1.65 ppg vs the pacific, 1.17 vs everyone else
only 0.4 goals a game when he isn't playing the pacific.


Well, to be fair, he thinks cherry-picked analytics are objective and unassailable facts. tears of joy
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:37 p.m.
#37
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Quoting: RipNasty
Says a Tampa fan


Your hypocrisy is astonishing. Me being a Tampa fan has no bearing on the argument of MacKinnon vs Matthews. Your response however reeks of envy since you are a leafs fan. Matthews is a very elite player. But he is not yet as good as MacKinnon is. Your argument of playoff performance is flat out ignorant. Saying it took him 5 years to get out of the first round is the exact same thing Matthews is currently struggling with. Since you clearly are unaware of the history I'll fill you in. MacKinnon went to the playoffs when he was 18 and 22. Both first round exits, at the hand of the team, not his own individual play. Yes it took him 3 tries to get out of the second round, but again, his individual play is not what caused them to lose. MacKinnon is well over a point per game in the playoffs. Matthews on the other hand, has gone to the playoffs 6 consecutive seasons since he entered the league as a rookie. All first round exits. 6. Yes, while the same argument could be made that the team wasn't good enough around him, Matthews hasn't been good enough in the playoffs as of yet to be in the same conversation as MacKinnon. Auston is a minus player and not even at a point per game in the playoffs. Not to mention Matthews is invisible when it matters most, although he did improve in that regard last season. I also hate the Avs and Leafs equally as I am a Wings and Bolts fan, so I'm not "playing favorites".
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:46 p.m.
#38
I Love J Boqvist
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Quoting: mokumboi
Well, to be fair, he thinks cherry-picked analytics are objective and unassailable facts. tears of joy


Unfortunately the unsustainably of Hughes primary linemate shooting 5.6% (11 goals below expected), while Petterssons primary linemate shoots 26.9% (14 goals above expected) makes him think pettersson is better.
mokumboi liked this.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:47 p.m.
#39
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Quoting: mokumboi
Well, to be fair, he thinks cherry-picked analytics are objective and unassailable facts. tears of joy


So what stats am I supposed to use? Those stats are from evolving hockey and is free to all. Are you suggesting that I trust YOUR eye test? What makes YOUR OPINION more valuable than a credible and reliable analytical model? Don't be so arrogant and pretend that you are so knowledgable about hockey that you are able to pick out the small minor details of a player's defensive game. How many Stars and Canucks games have you watched this year? If your answer isn't all of them, then your eye test is not credible
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:50 p.m.
#40
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Quoting: dgibb10
Unfortunately the unsustainably of Hughes primary linemate shooting 5.6% (11 goals below expected), while Petterssons primary linemate shoots 26.9% (14 goals above expected) makes him think pettersson is better.


And you say I cherry pick stats? Kuzmenko is a rookie, and his other primary linemates have been Mikheyev and Beauvillier, both career bottom 6 players. Additionally, I EVEN SAID that Hughes has a slightly better offensive impact which you seem to keep missing. Also, your arguments don't provide any insight on why Pettersson is so much better defensively. You going to tell me that Kuzmenko is a defensive stud who carries Pettersson defensively? Come on...
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:52 p.m.
#41
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Quoting: dgibb10
in pettersson's division is 4 of the 5 worst save % teams in hockey. only 1 team (vegas) is above average.
In hughes division is 5 top half teams in save % (including Igor and Sorokin and the canes). and only philly (with carter hart who's great) and CBJ below average.

in goals against:
3 of the top 5 teams in hockey are in the metro (not counting NJD)

9 points against the poverty ducks (worst defensive team in hockey).

1.65 ppg vs the pacific, 1.17 vs everyone else
only 0.4 goals a game when he isn't playing the pacific.


1.17 PPG is a 96 point pace. Also these are the definition of cherry picked stats. Anyway, 0.4 goals per game is pretty good for a playmaker. That is a 33 goal pace over 82 games. Seeing as how Pettersson is clearly a pass first player, those starts are even more impressive.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:52 p.m.
#42
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Quoting: mokumboi
Well, to be fair, he thinks cherry-picked analytics are objective and unassailable facts. tears of joy


You are the one who didn't even know the difference between objective and subjective like an hour agotears of joy
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:54 p.m.
#43
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Quoting: mokumboi
Oh cool! So analytics, otherwise known as on-ice stats, otherwise known as NOT individual stats. And again: analytic stats are NOT "facts" in the way you want to use them. They are entirely subjective, as the formula maker decides what is important to count, and how much it counts for, and what is not - that is SUBJECTIVE. Subjective AND not individual AND based on an analytic stat that is highly faulty. But do you really think that picking one particular analytic site makes your argument bulletproof? Not only are you "judging" purely by Heiskanen's analytic stats as seen by ONE formula out of many (I'll assume you;ve seen Hughes play plenty), but nooooo, one does not have to watch every single minute of the whole season or their eye test opinion is completely invalid. That is not at all how it works, and precisely something someone who never watches one of the players would say in desperation because they know reading an analytic stat sheet does not tell them with precision how a player has played.

Oh, and Hughes spent the most time this season with Schenn (how do you imagine one plays with the whole defense exactly?), who is obviously a defensive specialist and nothing else. Gosh, maybe that had something to do with his defense analytics perking up finally...

You like the Canucks best, we get it.


Luke Schenn while I like him a lot, is really not that good. Sure he is a defensive specialist but he isn't too special defensively. Not only does evolving hockey paint that picture



Are you trying to tell me that this guy carried Quinn Hughes all season?
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:56 p.m.
#44
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Quoting: Juiceman
Luke Schenn while I like him a lot, is really not that good. Sure he is a defensive specialist but he isn't too special defensively. Not only does evolving hockey paint that picture



Are you trying to tell me that this guy carried Quinn Hughes all season?


url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FJFreshHockey%2Fstatus%2F1630686343599669251&psig=AOvVaw0z6ZZB4sfnnSA8B_ywVjtm&ust=1680047612716000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA0QjhxqFwoTCMji1pqn_f0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE
Mar. 27, 2023 at 7:58 p.m.
#45
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Quoting: mokumboi
Oh cool! So analytics, otherwise known as on-ice stats, otherwise known as NOT individual stats. And again: analytic stats are NOT "facts" in the way you want to use them. They are entirely subjective, as the formula maker decides what is important to count, and how much it counts for, and what is not - that is SUBJECTIVE. Subjective AND not individual AND based on an analytic stat that is highly faulty. But do you really think that picking one particular analytic site makes your argument bulletproof? Not only are you "judging" purely by Heiskanen's analytic stats as seen by ONE formula out of many (I'll assume you;ve seen Hughes play plenty), but nooooo, one does not have to watch every single minute of the whole season or their eye test opinion is completely invalid. That is not at all how it works, and precisely something someone who never watches one of the players would say in desperation because they know reading an analytic stat sheet does not tell them with precision how a player has played.

Oh, and Hughes spent the most time this season with Schenn (how do you imagine one plays with the whole defense exactly?), who is obviously a defensive specialist and nothing else. Gosh, maybe that had something to do with his defense analytics perking up finally...

You like the Canucks best, we get it.






You're right, Hughes was definitely CARRIED by this guy. Laughable
Mar. 27, 2023 at 8:20 p.m.
#46
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman
You are the one who didn't even know the difference between objective and subjective like an hour agotears of joy


Nope. I wasn't. But nice try... again.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 8:21 p.m.
#47
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman




You're right, Hughes was definitely CARRIED by this guy. Laughable


Never said any such thing = straw man.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 8:23 p.m.
#48
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Quoting: Juiceman
And you say I cherry pick stats? Kuzmenko is a rookie, and his other primary linemates have been Mikheyev and Beauvillier, both career bottom 6 players. Additionally, I EVEN SAID that Hughes has a slightly better offensive impact which you seem to keep missing. Also, your arguments don't provide any insight on why Pettersson is so much better defensively. You going to tell me that Kuzmenko is a defensive stud who carries Pettersson defensively? Come on...


Those defensive metrics are based on comparison to teammates. Did you read where they come from?? It's relative to teammates and then they do an adjustment. and so Jack Hughes is competing against the likes of Hischier in those metrics, while Petterson competes against JT miller.

Kuzmenko is 27 years old and was coming over as a PPG player in the KHL.

Hughes got haula the same amount (within 1) of expected goals as Pettersson got Kuzmenko. but Kuzmenko buried 35 of them and Haula buried 8.

If you look into the model and how its built it will tell you exactly why it likes pettersson more.

-Plays PK (worst in the league btw)
-His teammates score way above what they should, inflating his primary stats. (evolving hockey uses goals for offense and xgoals for defense)
-He plays in a worse division and conference and so easier schedule, inflating all of his metric stats
-They like his faceoff % (both suck)
-His teammates (not on his line) are worse, inflating his relative metrics
-Etc etc
Mar. 27, 2023 at 8:24 p.m.
#49
mokumboi
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Quoting: Juiceman
So what stats am I supposed to use? Those stats are from evolving hockey and is free to all. Are you suggesting that I trust YOUR eye test? What makes YOUR OPINION more valuable than a credible and reliable analytical model? Don't be so arrogant and pretend that you are so knowledgable about hockey that you are able to pick out the small minor details of a player's defensive game. How many Stars and Canucks games have you watched this year? If your answer isn't all of them, then your eye test is not credible


Dude, stop trying to do intentional false equivalencies. They're not arguments. And I hate to break it to you, but most analytic formulas grade Heisky out higher. So you picked the one cherry-picked formula who gives Hughes an advantage for the particular time frame you prefer. That's the definition of cherry-picking. Sorry.
Mar. 27, 2023 at 8:27 p.m.
#50
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Quoting: Juiceman
1.17 PPG is a 96 point pace. Also these are the definition of cherry picked stats. Anyway, 0.4 goals per game is pretty good for a playmaker. That is a 33 goal pace over 82 games. Seeing as how Pettersson is clearly a pass first player, those starts are even more impressive.


Hughes is a playmaker too he was just stuck with Erik Haula for most of the year while Pettersson gets Kuzmenko.

Haula has had the same amount of xGoals playing alongside hughes as Kuz has alongside Pettersson, but Haula has been snakebitten and unable to finish a SINGLE chance hughes has provided him all year (yes you're reading that right, 0 goals).
Meanwhile Kuzmenko of the same amount of chances has given pettersson 22 assists.

Switch that scoring ability/luck and Hughes would be at 108 points while Pettersson at 71.
 
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