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Jack Hughes vs Elias Pettersson a debate

Created by: csick
Team: 2023-24 New Jersey Devils
Initial Creation Date: Jul. 20, 2023
Published: Jul. 20, 2023
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Pettey is better now, Hughes is better longterm
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:45 p.m.
#26
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Hughes is the best u25 player in the world
Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:45 p.m.
#27
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Quoting: pretzelcoatl
The model is fed zone start information. How well it accounts for it is another matter. The model gives off/def/overall numbers at 5v5. PK WAR does not factor into these.


PK WAR factors in the PK WAR section of the card where Petey isn’t too great, but Hughes is non existent
Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:45 p.m.
#28
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
Hughes is the best u25 player in the world


Makar over both
Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:58 p.m.
#29
n.1 Topias Vilen fan
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Quoting: Juiceman
Where are you getting those numbers? It is unheard of for a player to have that high offensive zone starts. Most of the time players start their shifts on the fly. I don’t think it is possible for a player to start over 50% of their shifts in an offensive zone faceoffs.


Natural stat trick. I misspoke, it's percent of faceoffs.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:01 p.m.
#30
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Quoting: pretzelcoatl
Natural stat trick. I misspoke, it's percent of faceoffs.


I mostly use evolving hockey as it’s free and provides a lot of stats. Uses the GAR model
Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:05 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: Tintin
The ultimate EP40 vs. Jizzy debate from last summer
Good times. Starts at page 43.

There was a whole thread dedicated to this topic created around the same time but I couldn't find it.


We're in the part of the offseason where me starting making takes that will make us look bad in the future awesome face
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:10 p.m.
#32
Tabarnak
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Quoting: Juiceman
Poor argument. Linemates wasn’t a problem. Only reason Pettersson may have lower offensive numbers (still more points) is because of defensive zone deployment


Wasn't an argument as much as a criticism of Miller's defensive acumen.
Not looking at position, would you agree that Hughes' + Hischier's total defense play is better than Pettey's + Miller's ?
Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:12 p.m.
#33
do not Devil my ass
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Quoting: Juiceman
We're in the part of the offseason where me starting making takes that will make us look bad in the future awesome face

I think it's safe to say that the 22-23 season kinda vindicated @NHLfan10506 in aledging that Podkolzin, Höglander and future 1st rd picks does in fact count as "middling pieces", if that's what you were referring to in particular.
That seems to have been one of the points made that started that whole flare up.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:13 p.m.
#34
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Quoting: Tintin
I think it's safe to say that the 22-23 season kinda vindicated NHLfan10506 in aledging that Podkolzin, Höglander and future 1st rd picks does in fact count as "middling pieces".
That seems to have been one of the points made that started that whole flare up.


I read one comment that suggest Pettersson, Hoglander, Podkolzin, 2023 1st, 2024 1st +. I don't even remember the initial debate but that seems kind of lopsided
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:14 p.m.
#35
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Quoting: Tintin
I think it's safe to say that the 22-23 season kinda vindicated NHLfan10506 in aledging that Podkolzin, Höglander and future 1st rd picks does in fact count as "middling pieces", if that's what you were referring to in particular.
That seems to have been one of the points made that started that whole flare up.


I think it is a lot more fair to compare them now than when Hughes played 49 games last season. Pretty much the entire argument was "Hughes has far more potential" and "Hughes needs a bigger sample size". At the end of the day its funny to see how wrong we both were

I have said several times that Hughes is an elite player with superstar potential yet I keep getting yelled at because I point out that his 49 game sample size isn’t enough to grant him that title YET
-Me

I feel like that got glossed over. Hughes DID earn that title this season, but I think it was reasonable enough to be skeptical after 49 games last season
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:18 p.m.
#36
Tabarnak
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Quoting: pretzelcoatl
Hughes and Hischier were on the ice together for 16 minutes of 5v5 across 77 games. Saying they have each other is completely disingenuous.


Don't take it too seriously.
I might have got this wrong, as I was thinking of 1-2 punch centerlines. Thought Miller was mostly playing center after Horvat was gone.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:19 p.m.
#37
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Quoting: Blasphem_Guy
Don't take it too seriously.
I might have got this wrong, as I was thinking of 1-2 punch centerlines. Thought Miller was mostly playing center after Horvat was gone.


He was. They basically only played together on the PP and PK
Jul. 20, 2023 at 4:05 p.m.
#38
Dougie HIMilton
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Quoting: Juiceman
I mostly use evolving hockey as it’s free and provides a lot of stats. Uses the GAR model


EH isnt free.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 4:24 p.m.
#39
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Quoting: HeadHighSauce
EH isnt free.


evolving hockey player pages are very much free
Jul. 20, 2023 at 4:34 p.m.
#40
Dougie HIMilton
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Quoting: Juiceman
evolving hockey player pages are very much free


ah I thought you were talking about the charts and tables, my apologies
Jul. 20, 2023 at 4:34 p.m.
#41
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Quoting: HeadHighSauce
ah I thought you were talking about the charts and tables, my apologies


Yeah unfortunately the RAPM charts aren't free, but the player pages still provide a pretty good amount of stuff to work with
Jul. 20, 2023 at 4:38 p.m.
#42
Dougie HIMilton
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Quoting: Juiceman
Yeah unfortunately the RAPM charts aren't free, but the player pages still provide a pretty good amount of stuff to work with


I'm a subscriber so I don't really know what's free and what's not. I knew the basic tables were but I was unaware GAR/xGAR info was available anywhere else.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 5:29 p.m.
#43
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Quoting: Juiceman
Not really, but in terms of same age production, Hughes has the edge. Pettersson’s defensive game is simply too far ahead to say Hughes is better consideration that Pettersson still put up more points while playing pretty heavy defensive minutes


Quoting: Juiceman
Poor argument. Linemates wasn’t a problem. Only reason Pettersson may have lower offensive numbers (still more points) is because of defensive zone deployment


Not too sure which metrics contribute the most to offensive WAR beyond production mectrics, but to just compare production (results) and then defensive ability of two players with similar production is really over simplifying things. Offensive ability goes beyond just the results and models certainly take different factors in but they will be biased towards certain metrics and they also can't cover everything.

It's also really difficult to compare offense vs defense impact directly. The absolute best defensive player who can purely defense doesn't compare to the best offensive players. So, I don't think it's a good tie breaker per se to determine the overall better player without really going into deep details.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 5:41 p.m.
#44
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Quoting: GMBL
Not too sure which metrics contribute the most to offensive WAR beyond production mectrics, but to just compare production (results) and then defensive ability of two players with similar production is really over simplifying things. Offensive ability goes beyond just the results and models certainly take different factors in but they will be biased towards certain metrics and they also can't cover everything.

It's also really difficult to compare offense vs defense impact directly. The absolute best defensive player who can purely defense doesn't compare to the best offensive players. So, I don't think it's a good tie breaker per se to determine the overall better player without really going into deep details.


I mean if you don't measure results, what else are you supposed to measure? You can look at Jfresh's microstat breakdown. Those go in depth on what is being measured in these metrics
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:54 p.m.
#45
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Quoting: Tintin
I think it's safe to say that the 22-23 season kinda vindicated NHLfan10506 in aledging that Podkolzin, Höglander and future 1st rd picks does in fact count as "middling pieces", if that's what you were referring to in particular.
That seems to have been one of the points made that started that whole flare up.


Quoting: Juiceman
I read one comment that suggest Pettersson, Hoglander, Podkolzin, 2023 1st, 2024 1st +. I don't even remember the initial debate but that seems kind of lopsided


Podkolzin, Hoglander and picks for Hughes

That was the deal that triggered debate last year.

Turned into Podkolzin vs Hughes
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:54 p.m.
#46
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Podkolzin, Hoglander and picks for Hughes

That was the deal that triggered debate last year.

Turned into Podkolzin vs Hughes


Not sure how that happened or how that escalated to Hughes vs Pettersson, but it was funny to see how wrong we both were in the end
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:56 p.m.
#47
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Quoting: Juiceman
Not sure how that happened or how that escalated to Hughes vs Pettersson, but it was funny to see how wrong we both were in the end


If saying Hughes>Podkolzin is wrong…I don’t want to be right.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:59 p.m.
#48
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And why are NJD and VAN fans letting @csick off the hook for this.

Tim Stutzle or Wyatt Johnson
Jake Sanderson or Owen Power
Brady Tkachuk or Milan Lucic
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 8:09 p.m.
#49
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
If saying Hughes>Podkolzin is wrong…I don’t want to be right.


Yeah, thats not what I was talking about
Jul. 20, 2023 at 8:23 p.m.
#50
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
And why are NJD and VAN fans letting csick off the hook for this.

Tim Stutzle or Wyatt Johnson
Jake Sanderson or Owen Power
Brady Tkachuk or Milan Lucic


???
 
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