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Does this make sense

Created by: Rob32sjsharks
Team: 2023-24 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Jul. 24, 2023
Published: Jul. 24, 2023
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Sharks fan here just trying to think outside the box.
Toronto could use Karlsson’s offense from the blue line, Nylander is rumored to not be likely to resign.
This gets you out of the cap issues and gets you the Norris winning D and a younger RW with upside and grit to his game.
Is this a win win or does Toronto pas and prefer to move Nylander for picks and Prospects?

Not trying to belittle the Leafs and their players value, but the cap hell they created and the fact only 6/7 teams have reasonable enough cap space to take on Nylander's contract and of those teams only 2-3 are realistic possibilities this kind of makes sense.

Let me know what you guys are thinking?

Oh and I’ve been told moving Murray to LTIR is not an option or will be an issue because he was available for the playoffs and the NHLPA is keeping a close eye on that situation. Again I’m not an expert just relaying the things I’ve heard.
Trades
TOR
  1. Karlsson, Erik ($3,500,000 retained)
  2. Zetterlund, Fabian
Additional Details:
Nylander for Karlsson 1 for 1
Zetterlund for Brodie and Murray plus the 1st for cap dump.
SJS
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2024
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2025
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2026
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$83,500,000$81,556,584$0$0$1,943,416
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,500,000$5,500,000
LW, RW
NMC
UFA - 1
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$11,640,250$11,640,250
C
NMC
UFA - 1
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$10,903,000$10,903,000
RW
NMC
UFA - 2
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$925,000$925,000
LW, RW
RFA - 2
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$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 2
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$1,450,000$1,450,000
RW
RFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$796,667$796,667
LW, RW
RFA - 1
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$3,000,000$3,000,000
C, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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$2,100,000$2,100,000
RW, C, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
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$2,400,000$2,400,000
C
M-NTC
UFA - 4
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$1,150,000$1,150,000
RW, C, LW
UFA - 1
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$1,350,000$1,350,000
RW
UFA - 3
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$7,500,000$7,500,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 7
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$6,500,000$6,500,000
RD
NMC
UFA - 4
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$3,550,000$3,550,000
G
UFA - 1
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$2,000,000$2,000,000
LD/RD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,400,000$1,400,000
RD
RFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$766,667$766,667
G
RFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$800,000$800,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,150,000$4,150,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
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$1,100,000$1,100,000
RD
RFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,625,000$5,625,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$775,000$775,000
C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$800,000$800,000
C, LW
RFA - 2

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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:02 p.m.
#1
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No - I don't see this making sense for either team. (unless Nylander is shipped to a 3rd team in the same trade and those assests go to San Jose).

Leafs should not spend 8 x 4m on Karlsson. They already have a lot of offensive dmen.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:05 p.m.
#2
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Quoting: TMLBRIAN
No - I don't see this making sense for either team. (unless Nylander is shipped to a 3rd team in the same trade and those assests go to San Jose).

Leafs should not spend 8 x 4m on Karlsson. They already have a lot of offensive dmen.


But none come close to what Karlsson can give you.

And sharks have a big need at top line RW both at the NHL level and in the prospect pool (sharks have a bunch of solid 2-4th line options but no real top line RW options) So if they can resign him great and if not move him at the TDL for more assets.

Maybe swap Klingberg and Brodie but neither give any real value to the sharks future the key to the sharks is that 1st and Nylander.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:05 p.m.
#3
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Karlsson is not worth the same as Nylander. One is 33 and has a long history of injuries the other is 27 and still getting better. Hard pass
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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:08 p.m.
#4
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Quoting: RipNasty
Karlsson is not worth the same as Nylander. One is 33 and has a long history of injuries the other is 27 and still getting better. Hard pass


But one just scored more points as a RD and won thenNorris and is signed for 4 years through your cup window and the other likely walks at the end of the season.

In a vacuum I would agree this isn’t logical but with a huge cap issue and sharks willing to take on a ton of cap to clean up your issue it kinda makes sense to me.

After all Vegas gave up Pacioretty for nothing last year because of cap issues this seems less of a loss to me.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:09 p.m.
#5
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what kind of return do we think Nylander gets 50% retained at the TDL? Will that trade even be easy?
why do we not think SJ is on Nylander's 10-team list?
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:12 p.m.
#6
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Quoting: poeticentropy
what kind of return do we think Nylander gets 50% retained at the TDL? Will that trade even be easy?
why do we not think SJ is on Nylander's 10-team list?


With Marleau on the sharks coaching and development staff I think he could be talked into coming here and signing.
If we do trade him 50% I would assume a similar haul value wise to Meier but who really knows.
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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:12 p.m.
#7
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As a Leafs Fan I dont want Karlsson, AT ALL... Last Offseason the Sharks couldnt give this guy away with money retained.. now all the sudden he has ONE good season out of 5 and all the sudden hes Fetching WIlliam Nylander whos in his prime scoring 40 goals, a Very sound Defenceman in TJ Brodie, and a 1st round pick.... Ive seen other offers where its a Reallly good defencman like Pesce, multiple first round picks , or SHane right and a first PLUS.... Like come on... The guys on life support on his career, at any moment his ankle could give out on him youre married to him for another 4 seasons. and the guy cant play a lick of defence to save his life....

I really dont know how these mock trades are fetching so much for Karlson.

IMO Karlsson should not be getting anymore then a 2nd (moves to a first if he plays 65+ games and they make the conference finals. , A roster player like a TJ Brodie, and a Prospect like a Nick RObertson, If theyre going to retain some money then maybe you can look at that pick being a first round pick with no conditions. If im a team Im not giving up any more then that. Youd be stupid to. Trust me whoever gets Karlson is going to seriously regret it. He played out of his mind for one season because he wanted out of SJ so bad....
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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:16 p.m.
#8
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Not a fan of either team; horrible trade for Toronto. Grier can EASILY flip Brodie for a 2nd+ and Nylander for a 1st+.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:16 p.m.
#9
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Quoting: poeticentropy
what kind of return do we think Nylander gets 50% retained at the TDL? Will that trade even be easy?
why do we not think SJ is on Nylander's 10-team list?


Nylander at his current value would get a massive haul a the TDL at 50% retained, even as a pending UFA. The problem is, he's going from debatably the best offensive team to one of the worst, so his value might plummet if he's not producing on a bad Sharks team. And yeah, no way SJ is NOT on his list
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:16 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
With Marleau on the sharks coaching and development staff I think he could be talked into coming here and signing.
If we do trade him 50% I would assume a similar haul value wise to Meier but who really knows.


He'd definitely get a good haul at 50%, either traded in offseason or at TDL.
I'd be hesitant to give him the money and term he'd want especially during a rebuild. When SJ's ready to really compete again he's making 9.5mm at 30/31. He could definitely still be productive enough to make it worth it, but I'd be more inclined to take quality futures by flipping him (Somewhere like CAR could make sense for more scoring).
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:20 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: DJP1117
As a Leafs Fan I dont want Karlsson, AT ALL... Last Offseason the Sharks couldnt give this guy away with money retained.. now all the sudden he has ONE good season out of 5 and all the sudden hes Fetching WIlliam Nylander whos in his prime scoring 40 goals, a Very sound Defenceman in TJ Brodie, and a 1st round pick.... Ive seen other offers where its a Reallly good defencman like Pesce, multiple first round picks , or SHane right and a first PLUS.... Like come on... The guys on life support on his career, at any moment his ankle could give out on him youre married to him for another 4 seasons. and the guy cant play a lick of defence to save his life....

I really dont know how these mock trades are fetching so much for Karlson.

IMO Karlsson should not be getting anymore then a 2nd (moves to a first if he plays 65+ games and they make the conference finals. , A roster player like a TJ Brodie, and a Prospect like a Nick RObertson, If theyre going to retain some money then maybe you can look at that pick being a first round pick with no conditions. If im a team Im not giving up any more then that. Youd be stupid to. Trust me whoever gets Karlson is going to seriously regret it. He played out of his mind for one season because he wanted out of SJ so bad....


Yea he had injury issues, he also just played 25 min a night and scored 101 points playing all 82 games, last year wasn’t a bad year either and the injury was a weird wrist thing that is 100% his ankle wasn’t the issue the first few seasons in SJ it was the groin tear he tried to play through in the 19 playoffs that took a while to fully heal but he is healthy boss

If you never watched Karlsson last year I can understand your issue but he was a beast last year and the sharks D was better with him on the ice than without him.
23 of the -26 was empty net goals, sharks were a -86 +/- on the year and if you take out empty net goals sharks were a break even team with him on the ice. That was a team issue not a Karlsson issue.
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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:20 p.m.
#12
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Quoting: DJP1117
As a Leafs Fan I dont want Karlsson, AT ALL... Last Offseason the Sharks couldnt give this guy away with money retained.. now all the sudden he has ONE good season out of 5 and all the sudden hes Fetching WIlliam Nylander whos in his prime scoring 40 goals, a Very sound Defenceman in TJ Brodie, and a 1st round pick.... Ive seen other offers where its a Reallly good defencman like Pesce, multiple first round picks , or SHane right and a first PLUS.... Like come on... The guys on life support on his career, at any moment his ankle could give out on him youre married to him for another 4 seasons. and the guy cant play a lick of defence to save his life....

I really dont know how these mock trades are fetching so much for Karlson.

IMO Karlsson should not be getting anymore then a 2nd (moves to a first if he plays 65+ games and they make the conference finals. , A roster player like a TJ Brodie, and a Prospect like a Nick RObertson, If theyre going to retain some money then maybe you can look at that pick being a first round pick with no conditions. If im a team Im not giving up any more then that. Youd be stupid to. Trust me whoever gets Karlson is going to seriously regret it. He played out of his mind for one season because he wanted out of SJ so bad....


I can tell you didn't watch a single game of Karlsson last season. You can talk about his contract, and his points, and his defensive analytics all you want, but when you watch him ACTUALLY play you'll see that he takes over games. He's not struggling physically AT ALL. Dude is healthy and if you think a conditional 2nd, some cap dumps, and some C level prospects is what he's worth than I don't know what to tell you.
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Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:21 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: AStovetop
Nylander at his current value would get a massive haul a the TDL at 50% retained, even as a pending UFA. The problem is, he's going from debatably the best offensive team to one of the worst, so his value might plummet if he's not producing on a bad Sharks team. And yeah, no way SJ is NOT on his list


Marleau was a huge mentor for him and is a coach for the sharks, have to think he at least considers them.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:29 p.m.
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
Yea he had injury issues, he also just played 25 min a night and scored 101 points playing all 82 games, last year wasn’t a bad year either and the injury was a weird wrist thing that is 100% his ankle wasn’t the issue the first few seasons in SJ it was the groin tear he tried to play through in the 19 playoffs that took a while to fully heal but he is healthy boss

If you never watched Karlsson last year I can understand your issue but he was a beast last year and the sharks D was better with him on the ice than without him.
23 of the -26 was empty net goals, sharks were a -86 +/- on the year and if you take out empty net goals sharks were a break even team with him on the ice. That was a team issue not a Karlsson issue.


WAIT... He gave up 23 empty net goals in 82 games?? When there was an extra guy on the ice to help him he still let in 23 empty net goals... his defence is worse then I thought... I may have to adjust what I think hes worth and lower it a bit
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:34 p.m.
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Quoting: AStovetop
I can tell you didn't watch a single game of Karlsson last season. You can talk about his contract, and his points, and his defensive analytics all you want, but when you watch him ACTUALLY play you'll see that he takes over games. He's not struggling physically AT ALL. Dude is healthy and if you think a conditional 2nd, some cap dumps, and some C level prospects is what he's worth than I don't know what to tell you.


So you think hes Worth Nylander PLUS? Youre crazy.... so youre saying the last 4 years he wasnt healthy at all? hes a habitual minus player. Getting all those points but still managing to get -26 or whatever it was ,,, tells me he excels when theres open ice on the PP , but on 5 on 5 he struggles to play defence... thats what that tells me.

Im not saying hes not good... Im just saying those people saying hes worth Nylander plus a first PLUS is crazy... Or Pesce Plus a first PLUS... I just dont see it... Thats my personal oppinion.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:40 p.m.
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Quoting: DJP1117
WAIT... He gave up 23 empty net goals in 82 games?? When there was an extra guy on the ice to help him he still let in 23 empty net goals... his defence is worse then I thought... I may have to adjust what I think hes worth and lower it a bit


No the sharks team was horrible last year.
I would argue 5-6 ENG were because he tried to do to much but the majority were poor play and puck retrieval by the rest of the team.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:41 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: AStovetop
I can tell you didn't watch a single game of Karlsson last season. You can talk about his contract, and his points, and his defensive analytics all you want, but when you watch him ACTUALLY play you'll see that he takes over games. He's not struggling physically AT ALL. Dude is healthy and if you think a conditional 2nd, some cap dumps, and some C level prospects is what he's worth than I don't know what to tell you.


I go on the larger picture. not just one small sample size. Making decisions based on a small sample size or one good season is how teams get stuck with bad contracts. They pay for the player at their absolute height then expect that every single season and the player can never recapture it. Happens all to often.
I just look at Karlssons last few seasons since hes been with SJ. Games Played: 53-56-52-50-82, This tells me the guys injury prone and if im paying top Dollar for a guy.. I atleast want to know hes gunna be on the ice when I need them the most.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:41 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: DJP1117
So you think hes Worth Nylander PLUS? Youre crazy.... so youre saying the last 4 years he wasnt healthy at all? hes a habitual minus player. Getting all those points but still managing to get -26 or whatever it was ,,, tells me he excels when theres open ice on the PP , but on 5 on 5 he struggles to play defence... thats what that tells me.

Im not saying hes not good... Im just saying those people saying hes worth Nylander plus a first PLUS is crazy... Or Pesce Plus a first PLUS... I just dont see it... Thats my personal oppinion.


Didn’t say that if Toronto didn’t have cap issues Nylander for Karlsson 4 mil retained plus a 1st.
Here I have Karlsson 3.5 retained for Nylander.
The rest is for the cap dumps and Zetterlund.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:43 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: DJP1117
I go on the larger picture. not just one small sample size. Making decisions based on a small sample size or one good season is how teams get stuck with bad contracts. They pay for the player at their absolute height then expect that every single season and the player can never recapture it. Happens all to often.
I just look at Karlssons last few seasons since hes been with SJ. Games Played: 53-56-52-50-82, This tells me the guys injury prone and if im paying top Dollar for a guy.. I atleast want to know hes gunna be on the ice when I need them the most.


Ok larger picture 3 Norris wins and a great track record in the playoffs. Your not going larger picture your zeroing in on a few bad years that we’re the result of a bad team and a bad injury.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:49 p.m.
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
Ok larger picture 3 Norris wins and a great track record in the playoffs. Your not going larger picture your zeroing in on a few bad years that we’re the result of a bad team and a bad injury.


Haha. Well atleast that was a good argument. My point is...The guys 33 years old. Has had some HORRIFIC injuries that are likely gunna shorten his career. Hes signed to an ALBATROSS of a contract til hes like 38. I guarentee the sharks trade him before the season starts because they cant risk him getting hurt or having a slow start to the season.
My point is since hes started having these injuries he hasnt played more then 50+ games once last season..
If they guy could play good defence I would be ALLL OVER this guy ... I get hes a really good ofeensive player. Hes a good puck mover , he tries to do to much alot and gets caught out of position alot or flat flooted or pivoting the wrong way... YES ive watched EK. I just cant fathom giving up Nylander plus a first PLUS for the guy. or even Nylander alone...i just personally think its to much.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:51 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
Ok larger picture 3 Norris wins and a great track record in the playoffs. Your not going larger picture your zeroing in on a few bad years that we’re the result of a bad team and a bad injury.


The issue here, and the issue with any Karlsson trade, is that last year's season followed quite a few seasons of play that made Karlsson one of the most overpaid players in the league. If Karlsson started this next season on fire, his value would SKYROCKET, but I don't know if that is a risk SJ can take. Tough situation.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:51 p.m.
#22
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This was a bad idea to think Toronto fans would at least be reasonable.
I’m providing a get out of cap hell card, a 3 time Norris trophy winner who just scored the most points by a defenseman in the last 30 years with 3.5 mil retention making him less costly than the majority of Elite top line RD in the league, and a solid middle 6 young RW.

For 2 big cap dumps a late 1st and yes an Elite top line RW but one who’s out the door in 1 years and everyone knows it.

Yes Nylander and the 1st is a ton of Value
But Murray and Brodie don’t bring any value to Toronto or San Jose (both teams have players making 1-2 mil who can easily replace their production) and combined cost almost 10 mil in cap.

To be 100% honest as a sharks fan the only thing in this trade I care about is Nylander.

And yes sharks would be taking full advantage of the Toronto cap issues to make this happen, but to be fair I don’t think my deal here hurts the Leafs team.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 3:55 p.m.
#23
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
This was a bad idea to think Toronto fans would at least be reasonable.
I’m providing a get out of cap hell card, a 3 time Norris trophy winner who just scored the most points by a defenseman in the last 30 years with 3.5 mil retention making him less costly than the majority of Elite top line RD in the league, and a solid middle 6 young RW.

For 2 big cap dumps a late 1st and yes an Elite top line RW but one who’s out the door in 1 years and everyone knows it.

Yes Nylander and the 1st is a ton of Value
But Murray and Brodie don’t bring any value to Toronto or San Jose (both teams have players making 1-2 mil who can easily replace their production) and combined cost almost 10 mil in cap.

To be 100% honest as a sharks fan the only thing in this trade I care about is Nylander.

And yes sharks would be taking full advantage of the Toronto cap issues to make this happen, but to be fair I don’t think my deal here hurts the Leafs team.


This is why this whole part of the off-season is getting interesting. Everyone knows Toronto needs to dump cap. Whatever deal ends up happening, it won't favor the leafs or come close to it. From their perspective, they're trying to find deals that would hurt less than this one would. That being said, I think you're right in saying that a big move like this would solve their cap troubles. I think they'll go for a smaller bandaid than this one.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 4:00 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: DJP1117
Haha. Well atleast that was a good argument. My point is...The guys 33 years old. Has had some HORRIFIC injuries that are likely gunna shorten his career. Hes signed to an ALBATROSS of a contract til hes like 38. I guarentee the sharks trade him before the season starts because they cant risk him getting hurt or having a slow start to the season.
My point is since hes started having these injuries he hasnt played more then 50+ games once last season..
If they guy could play good defence I would be ALLL OVER this guy ... I get hes a really good ofeensive player. Hes a good puck mover , he tries to do to much alot and gets caught out of position alot or flat flooted or pivoting the wrong way... YES ive watched EK. I just cant fathom giving up Nylander plus a first PLUS for the guy. or even Nylander alone...i just personally think its to much.


36, he turns 37 at the very end of the deal.
And with 3.5 mil retention making it 8 mil a year it’s not really an albatross anymore.
If he was a FA this off-season you don’t think after 101 points and a Norris he wouldn’t have gotten a 4-5 year 8 mil plus offer from at least a few teams???

The 1st has nothing to do with Nylander.
You could split this into two separate deals
Nylander for Karlsson 3.5 mil retained plus a 2nd

Zetterlund for Murray and Brodie for then1st plus the 2nd back (hence why I left it off)

Sharks would end up with the better hand because we don’t need to move anyone before the season starts and Toronto Absolutely has to move at least 2 bigger contracts just to be cap compliant. And everyone in the NHL knows it so no one will be paying fair price to you guys.

Same issue Vegas had last year (Pacioretty for FC) and Calgary as well (giving Monahan and a 1 st for FC)

I thought I was being reasonable but I’m getting a ton of hate.
Jul. 24, 2023 at 4:03 p.m.
#25
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Quoting: Rob32sjsharks
36, he turns 37 at the very end of the deal.
And with 3.5 mil retention making it 8 mil a year it’s not really an albatross anymore.
If he was a FA this off-season you don’t think after 101 points and a Norris he wouldn’t have gotten a 4-5 year 8 mil plus offer from at least a few teams???

The 1st has nothing to do with Nylander.
You could split this into two separate deals
Nylander for Karlsson 3.5 mil retained plus a 2nd

Zetterlund for Murray and Brodie for then1st plus the 2nd back (hence why I left it off)

Sharks would end up with the better hand because we don’t need to move anyone before the season starts and Toronto Absolutely has to move at least 2 bigger contracts just to be cap compliant. And everyone in the NHL knows it so no one will be paying fair price to you guys.

Same issue Vegas had last year (Pacioretty for FC) and Calgary as well (giving Monahan and a 1 st for FC)

I thought I was being reasonable but I’m getting a ton of hate.


Don't take the hate personally, man. Leafs are in a huge bind and I can't blame their fan base for not being happy with any of the proposed solutions. Look how long it took Minnesota to come to terms with the Suter/Parise situation. Tough to watch your team face having to lose good players during a cup window.
 
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