Apr 30, 2017
2nd Favourite Team
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SlickWilly</b></div><div>Everyone loves to hate on Nylander, but he hasn't done anything wrong that everyone else hasn't done at some point. He went through 2 years of the AHL with albeit, not impressive point totals, although his skill set is one of a playmaker and it is hard to produce points without a scorer next to you, and is struggling slightly in his first real stint in the NHL. What is the difference between that and someone who goes through college for a couple years and struggles a little bit on their first time in the NHL? Take the fact that he was a high first round pick out of the equation for a second. Sikura went to college for 4 years and then struggled to put anything on the board in about the same time frame we have now seen Nylander. So why now is everyone all on board with trying to fire Nylander into the sun when he has shown actual promise of goal scoring ability, and Sikura has yet to score a single NHL goal? Sikura is 2 years older, less points in similar games played, and everyone hates Nylander just because of how he was acquired. Wasn't his fault. Wasn't even Bowmans fault really. Bowman was just trying to capitalize on his little bit of trade value he had left after Colliton ruined it. Bowman was smart to move him out and actually get something for it before he spent his entire career in the AHL because Colliton wouldnt play him</div></div>
Except hes been playing with toews and saad the whole time and hasnt produced much. Hes weak along the boards, fumbles the puck constantly, and makes turnovers. His only real assets are his shot and speed but he can never control the puck enough to get a shot off. So Nylander gets the benefit of the doubt, but Jokiharjus value had plummeted after half a season so its smart to trade him? That trade just wasnt good no point in trying to justify it, Bowman isnt 100% at fault it was mostly Colliton, Bowman just made the call. Sikura is a fringe NHLer hes irrelevant.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>Couple of opinions. First off, really really enjoying the debate. Honestly, no bull****, you definitely are an informed fan, and thank you for not calling me a jerk or insulting me outright. I love to discuss hockey with people even though I’m stubborn with my opinions. I do like it when people prove me wrong though.
That said, my problem with comparing development between straight into the nhl and staying in juniors/college is that there’s so many instances where the latter makes players infinitely better. To your point, Dach has to play against harder opponents. Fair enough, but I’ll be honest, he had plenty of hard ones in juniors. Remember, while he played on a garbage Saskatoon team, he extremely inconsistent last year. If fact, he had went one period of like 12 games without a point, not goal, a point. Everything we heard around his hype centered around his “elevated” game in the playoffs. However, Dach never, at any point, dominated that league. In all honesty, he really needed to learn how to dominate his age group before he could be comfortable in the nhl. I would argue that plays into Colliton putting him on the fourth line.
As for players like turcotte or byram, don’t forget recent history. Great example is 2017 draft. Hirscher and Patrick were taken 1-2. 3-4-5??? That would be heiskanen, makar, and Pettersson. Hirscher is good, solid even, I wouldn’t say elite. Patrick is just a bust, I’m sorry but he’s a bust. The next three? All either played juniors or in pro leagues that (with due respect) don’t compare to the nhl. However, each one of them are wayyyyyy better than hirscher and Patrick.
One more: how about dahlin and Quinn Hughes? Same position, one was #1, the other #7. Now, this is not to suggest that dahlin is bad, he is elite, and believe he was a Calder nominee(???). Straight to the nhl as expected. Then you have Hughes who was great for a year with a bad Michigan team. Now he is pure elite, and a shoe in for a Calder nomination (and will lose to college trained (too) makar).
Point is, my only saving grace on this kid when they drafted him was the expectation that they wouldn’t rush him. Now that they have, it just concerns me after seeing how players of his build and stature have turned out lately under the same circumstances (kotkaniemi and Patrick).
Meanwhile, turcotte is playing against guys who are all his age or older, so in his case, he gets very tough competition. Byram, for a fact I know is working on his defense this year on a garbage Vancouver giants team. In both cases, though, they’ll definitely be better developed for a chance to succeed.</div></div>
Same. People can get pretty apprehensive and things can escalate quickly on here. But I dont think I can change your mind on Dach, so we will have to see how Dach/Turcotte/Byram preform in the future.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>First of all, I need to clarify this: at no point have I called dach a bust. I have said that Dach could become a good player. Do I think he’s a generational player? Obviously not, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that. He could be the caliber of player to get 60 points tops some day, which is a very good player. Not terrible at all for a number 3 overall. I just feel a hell of a lot better about players the caliber of turcotte and byram. Dach was clearly picked because he was ready faster, but that’s very disappointing when both byram and turcotte has higher ceilings. I don’t think that’s a stretch either.
To your points about Hughes and kakko, here’s the problem. In Hughes’s case, Jersey is bad, like bad bad. Another problem with Jersey is that the players Hughes CAN play with, are way worse than Chicago. Dach has Kane, debrincat, etc., and has been unspectacular. Hughes, every time he’s on the ice, you know he’s there though. The speed he plays with always shows. He wants to be a difference maker, he just has literally zero to work with. Outside palmieri and hall, who?
Kakko, however, is even worse off. The rangers are one of the worst defensive teams in the league both statistically and analytically. Even more than Chicago. Beyond that, kakko genuinely needs adjustment time to North America. That much was clear when he debuted. As such, yes, kakko definitely has hits against him. Can’t argue that. Unfortunately, Dach has the blessing of a better offense to play in. Hughes and kakko both teams with below average offenses and very bad defenses.
As for the zadina/byfield comparison, I don’t compare players separated by two years of age. Only players in their draft years.
But, since you brought up such a comparison, how bout dach and kotkaniemi? Both 3rd overall picks. Both bigger bodies meant to be two way centers. Both picked when they weren’t suppose to be. If dach has a rookie year like kotkaniemi (which btw he is on pace for), do we view it as subpar or a slight disappointment like Canadiens fans saw kotkaniemi?
No, dach is not a bust yet, nor am I saying he will be, but this isn’t a franchise defining player either. We needed to get tougher, and he doesn’t even do that. We needed to get bigger, and he doesn’t even use his body the right way. But, didn’t we need to get faster? Has anyone noticed how bad dach is against the faster teams? How bout the way he can at least keep up with the slow teams? Im sorry, but byram and the Avs are gonna run tough shot in us for years to come with that speed they play with. Turcotte could be one man showtime for the kings too, but he unfortunately may have to deal with a bad team for a few years. Either way, this draft, more than any before it, is going to define the hawks for years to come. Who we picked, who we didn’t, it’ll be questioned for a long time.
So what’s acceptable for Dach in the future? What does he need to be to be successful? 40 points? 50 points? Maybe 60? Okay, not bad. But for the love of god, that is not a number one center, not in TODAY’S NHL.</div></div>
Bust is not the right word, but you certainly dont see him as a good player. The case can be made that the hawks are bad bad too, we arent and never really were top of the standings, it was big news when our team was a game over .500. Dach has played like 2/3 games with Kane and Debrincat when Strome was out, thats not that big of a sample size and when everybody decided to stop playing. Hughes has hall and palm and kakko has panarin, kreider on a nightly basis, Dach has Smith and Carp and he produces at a similiar rate, thats good. The point of the comparison wasnt about age, its about the varying levels of leagues, I.E. Juniors/college vs NHL. You can only compare between equal leagues. Dach has to play against harder opponents, doesnt have all of the physical tools yet, limited ice time, etc. Turcotte/Byram get to play against developing kids, some 2 or 3 years younger, less physically developed, not as fast, not as skilled. So of course you can say they look better because theyre playing easier competition. If Dach can score 35ish points on the fourth line as a rookie I'd say thats a success, given all the things holding him back (Mostly Colliton). All Im saying is the Dach doom and gloom is unwarranted at this time.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>I hate to say it, but that’s exactly what you can do. Comparing nhl rookies to junior or college players that is. In fact, numerous times recently that’s been possible. For example, look at Quinn Hughes. Filip zadina was the only player that was consistently ranked above him, and yet, Hughes went 7th. The player i most look at above him is kotkaniemi. I would argue that Kotkaniemi’s rookie year was unspectacular. However, Hughes continued to impress in his one year at michigan. Sure enough, look at the two players this season. Pretty clear who the better choice was. I was obsessed with the hawks getting Hughes when we got the 8th pick.
It may feel like dach is producing, but the way he produces is far more concerning. Besides his two goal game against the Sabres, where actually looked like the 3rd OA, how more has he produced? I’ll remind you, he’s produced most around the 4th liners who make him look better and protect him. I get that he’s had good games, but shouldn’t he be making more progress when actually playing with Kane or debrincat? He’s had his chances, what’s wrong? They should make it easier on him if anything. He’ll get better and stronger most likely, but if nhl history has shown anything, he won’t get much faster. To your point, he doesn’t have those things yet. So why do we have to keep him on this bad team and waste a year of his ELC? He needed to get bigger and stronger.
But that’s a whole different problem. The only reason we took dach is cuz we were desperate for a player that was ready now. I hate that kind of thinking. I don’t mind losing as long as we pick the players that can make us better. The hawks didn’t do that with the 3rd OA. That’s frustrating. You’re scared cuz turcotte wanted to go to college for a year or two?! **** you stan you gutless moron. Talk to any Avs fan or Kings fan now, they’re so ecstatic we took dach and they get byram and turcotte. So now, as a hawks fan, I have to watch dach with the hawks try to keep up with byram and turcotte for the next 10 years plus.
My question still stands. What am I missing with dach? Forget how he’s played, what I am missing about him purely when stacking him against byram or turcotte? Especially turcotte? Turcotte is a true center, Dach still can’t be a true center yet. Plus, I’m sorry, but no one can convince me that, as of now, dach has a higher ceiling than turcotte or will have a better career. Not a chance.</div></div>
I disagree that you can. The level of competition in the NHL is far above and beyond that of any junior level. To your point about Zadina, he had junior success but it hasnt translated to NHL success (yet), is a player like Q.Byfield already better because he has more success than Zadina in a lesser league?
Dachs TOI and linemates arent on Dach, its on colliton, be mad at colliton for where Dach is in the line up. Again despite his TOI, linemates, and his own physical limitations because of his age hes produced in a limited role, which should be encouraging. Not to mention that the higher picks, Hughes and Kakko, have been averaging 3-4 more minutes per game, play bigger roles for their team, and probably see special teams time as well, they have only 11 and 12 points respectively while having played a few more games.
I do agree that he should have gone to the minors 100% and I wasnt really expecting Dach, I was on the Turcotte train all the way as well, but your analysis of Dach as a bust and Turcotte/Byram as franchise players is very premature imo.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>Yeaaaaa, I really hate that we gotta play both byram and turcotte 3 plus times a year. No matter what anyone says or tells me, he’ll never have the impact that byram or turcotte have on their teams.
As for tonight, I honestly saw one maybe two decent shifts out of dach. However, it’s still with the fourth line, and that doesn’t sit right with me. They’ve tried to put him with debrincat and Kane and it never worked. I know chemistry is a thing, but he’s behind the 8 ball on that one.
Also, I hate to say it, but I don’t see what growth everyone is speaking of. He still doesn’t shoot enough, his passing is still a little off when it counts, and worst of all, he’s a big body that doesn’t know how to use it. He seems to be better at movement off the puck, but he still doesn’t show enough drive on the forecheck or the backcheck. All I’m chalking this up to is he needs growth, but I don’t expect dach to grow into an elite player. He’ll be good, I’m sure, but he won’t be the elite two way center some scouts saw in him. I’m with the other scouts who knew the hawks reached by taking dach. I don’t care if dach was ready faster, it doesn’t change the fact he needed another year in juniors. Also, his ceiling is clearly lower than turcotte or byram. Look at it this way, dach isn’t even close to as good as toews was in his rookie season, albeit toews was smart enough to go back to college for a year.
I really do appreciate the optimism, but I’m sadly with the kings fan, they got the best player available at center post top 2. Turcotte is only in college and after 10 games, he looks way more like the player expected him to be than dach is. I’ll put it this way, if anyone can tell me what I’m missing, please do. What progress has he made? What made him a better choice than byram or turcotte? I just really wish someone could answer that for me, cuz I really love hearing what others have to say about him. I’ve played hockey for 25 years and been a hawks fan for as long, and I’ve never been more disappointed by a draft pick in that time. So please share what you see in him.</div></div>
You cant compare kids that are playing college and junior league to how a kid is playing in the nhl. NHL is the hardest league to produce in and Dach has done exactly that with mostly underwhelming players around him and little ice time. I dont get your hate for Dach hes produced at the NHL level and will only get stronger, faster, and better. But he isnt those things yet because hes just 18 but hes done well DESPITE not being those things at this time in his development. You can say you wish we picked somebody else but talking about Dach like hes Seabs is just baffling.