Jun 6, 2019
2nd Favourite Team
Vegas Golden Knights
Jul 12, 1990
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>I was debating with someone on here a month ago because they didn't think Chelios belongs in the top 10 defenders of all time and Keith didn't belong in the top 25.</div></div>
Okay, first of all...........what?????
Secondly, chelios easily is top 10 all time. Orr, Robinson, Wilson, lidstrom, borque, Coffey, Neidermeyer, CHELIOS, Potvin, and maybe Stevens?? Those are a few off the top of my head. If anyone really thinks chelios doesn’t belong there, gimme a damn break! Longevity, accolades, two way game, Captain, and pure leader of men. Nuff said.
As for Keith, maybe, just maybe, there’s room for debate. I’d say karlsson is the only one who comes close to him in the last decade. All time, I say he just gets in at 23-25 range.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>There are some great players in that mix; Brett Hull of course along with Mike Madono, Chelios, Brian Leetch, LaFontaine, Joe mullen, but at the end of his career I'm pretty sure Kaner will be at the top; definitely 1st ballad HOF guy and best point producer of the last decade by a good 35 points or so.</div></div>
I’ll say this, IF he isn’t yet, I would say the best American player is either hull or chelios. 700+ goals for hull and 2 cups. 3 Norris trophies and 3 cups for chelios. However, I hesitate on hull because he was absolutely god awful on defensive and one dimensional of a player. Before anybody jumps on the defense part, Kane has for the most part actually improved greatly on defense in the last decade. Modano just lacks then individual achievements to me. Leetch will forever be second to chelios. LaFontaine again lacks the achievements and maybe longevity due to injury. As for Mullen, he always came across as a complementary player instead of a driver of the team. Doesn’t take away from his stats of course.
But overall, as it stands, only chelios and (maybe, I’ve been talking myself out of it as I write this) hull may stand in Kane’s way. In the end, I have no doubt he’ll be considered the best though.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>I probably would have sent him back for a lot of reasons. Contract status for the long term probably being #1, but as far as performance...Dach's doing just as good IMO as Hughes Kakko. So I'm not disappointed, but I...typically...prefer when kids dominate their level before jumping. Lets use Jack Hughes as an example. He can go to the OHL (where ever really) and dominate. OR come to the NHL and play like he has. Definitely has speed, vision, and playmaking ability. BUT he's never going to get compared to Dach. When people talk about Jack Hughes, they're going to compare him to McDavid, Matthews, and Dahlin. Other #1 OAs, but not #3 OA picks. To me that's terribly unfair, but also how the world works. Point being. You better be sure! Let's take another Example. Our Guy Dylan Strome. Chayka was messing up his development for sure. He stunk in AZ and was traded away WITH another 1st round pick. Move to today...there aren't toooo many players younger than him that are 100% better than him. Sure, there are players out there younger than 22 that are better than him, but not THAT many.</div></div>
Okay, so here’s my problem with the performance aspect of your thoughts. Number one, you are right, he is keeping up with Hughes and kakko. However, let’s not pretend that is impressive or saying something, cuz all three are showing that they should be in juniors.
That being said, I get that performance wise you think he belongs, but are people that desperate for success that they rush an 18 child into the nhl when he isn’t fully ready? Never mind fully ready, another year in juniors where he could learn to actually be consistent (which he has never been) and he would have probably had a decent year next and not have a wasted 1st year of his contract.
To your point on Hughes, I don’t actually think he should be compared to those other number 1s either. When I compare players, I look at player comparables, not draft position.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>NYR_Mike</b></div><div>Dach, Hughes, and Kaako all struggling offensively this year.
All 3 are going to be fine.</div></div>
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>It's a good question to ask.
Getzlaf and Bergeron (ironically) both had 39 points their rookie years. Getzlaf seems to be his comp for the most part. OReilly 26 points in each of his 1st (2) years. Barkov 24 points then 36 points. Pierr Luc 48. Everyone starts differently. About half of those guys started in the NHL after they got drafted. The draft really is kinda crap shoot. Not 100%, but if we each had a crystal ball there wouldn't be any Stones, Palats, or Johnny Hockey. There are also plenty of 1-5 picks that do hardly nothing. Pool party, Olli Juolevi, Dal Colle, Nail Yakupov...heck go look at the 2012 draft Yikes! I don't think Dach is this years candidate. If anything currently Bowen Byram is the front runner there. I was wrong on that one. I tend to like Defensive forwards more than the average. I would take Bergeron over Stamkos 7 days a week. I don't think Dach is going to be a pure defensive center, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if during his career he gets some Selke votes. I see him being a 2-way player.</div></div>
This actually brings up an interesting thought I proposed a few weeks ago. What’s the chances that this draft turns out like 2012? Or even the 2017 draft, where hirscher and Patrick go 1-2 followed by heiskanen makar Pettersson.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>Offense will come. He is very clearly more gifted offensively then Strome (who doesn't have much of a defensive game either). He needs to put on some girth as he is pretty lanky right now. He also needs to further adjust to the game. That said, our boy Turcotte isn't playing a point a game in the NCAA (16 points in 19 games, 6 goals), so while I know Turcotte needs to mature for a year or two before playing pro, Dach is clearly the better player right now.</div></div>
Ya see, I like this response. However, I will still ask, theoretically, if Dach did only become a defensive specialist and still post 50 points a season, would we be happy?
I do agree with you on the Strome analysis, but not for the reasons one may think. I think Strome is more offensive minded, whereas Dach has more offensive tools (passing, hands) although I do think his shot needs work still. However, where I think people really wont agree with me is that neither Strome nor Dach are drivers of play. Caveats not withstanding, I know he's 18, but a lot of the offensive production he has generated this year has come from being around energy players like carpenter and smith. That's not a knock on Dach, cuz you can see how well its worked out for Strome.
As for Turcotte, or any player that isn't in the NHL from this draft, I'll gladly bet good money any of the top 10 forwards will easily outscore Dach in their rookie years. Granted that isn't saying much given Dach's lack of production, but it speaks more to how they're learning. All these kids in college/juniors will go into their rookie years full of confidence and having learned from mistakes in roles with less pressure on them. They were given time to grow not just as players but as adults. Dach wasn't really afforded that, which is unfortunate, but because Hughes and Kakko have struggled, many use that as misguided proof that Dach belongs. It really sucks to hear it too.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SlickWilly</b></div><div>I wouldnt call Dach a "problem." Debrincat has been snake bitten at even strength as well, only 4 goals 5v5 all season and 8 on the powerplay. Surely if he's scoring Dach has quite a few more points. Along with that, Kampf is flanking them, probably the second-least offensive player on the team behind carpenter. Sure it doesn't look great for Dach, but it isn't looking great for Debrincat at the moment either, and I don't see anyone freaking out over him. As long as he looks like he's playing fine and he isn't making game-breaking mistakes, this season is a big load of confidence and progress for him. Once he fills out in the summer and gets hella gains, dude is gonna be camped in front of the net scoring rebounds 30 plus times a year. He knows where to be on the ice to make goals happen, he just isn't quite strong enough yet. He will be fine</div></div>
Two things on debrincat. First, look at debrincat’s game stats over the last month. Yes, goals are a little few and far, but he is getting assists. There’s been plenty of games where cat and strome get 2 points a piece and Dach is nothing. Second, debrincat has had a 28 goal season and 40+ goal season to start his career. Key word is START. Cat has the luxury of some rope, not to mention the way he contributes offensively through assists and plenty of shots. Dach doesn’t.
Maybe he does fill out over the summer, I hope you are right. I’d love to be wrong about him so bad. Cuz a lot of jobs and the future of a franchise hinges on who Was chosen to lead the way. I think 30 goals a year is a little like me calling him a bust though, in that we haven’t seen enough evidence to claim that. Boy I hope I’m wrong though. I just wish it woulda happened by now, at least a sign.....
Okay, so I know I already made a similar response on the other thread. So, in my eyes, nylander doesn’t really get helped by anyone short of toews, Saad, or Kane. As you said, nylander needs someone to drive play for him. However, Dach and Caggiula don’t do that. Neither do on their own even. Caggiula is just a wicked energy player, and I believe there’s a difference between that and driving play. Dach, meanwhile, is solely reliant on players making him better. He doesn’t have the speed or the physical style to drive play. He has hands, which was never a doubt, but slow feet get your fast hands no where. So, for now, I’ll admit I don’t know what’s been for nylander. Maybe a time machine back to before the trade???
As for the remaining schedule, I have no doubt that it will tend to make the team look like a pretender. The team is putting forth good efforts, but it always ends up in vain when a three game win streak is followed three losses in a row. Ergo, I think this team is still in denial. Then again, I’m pretty if a hawks fan doesn’t admit that, they just don’t know enough about hockey.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>Wait, am I reading this right? You have had a negative comment about Dach since Saturday??? Must be a record. Some things are hard to believe! :)</div></div>
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SlickWilly</b></div><div>Hes looked a lot better than his stats show. He's been figuring it out defensively and how to play the boards so he doesnt get slammed twice a game, and his hands have definitely been progressing as well. I think he's definitely going to produce a lot more next year once he learns how to put it all together. Remember he is still only 18 and everyone past him from the top 10 isnt even in the NHL yet</div></div>
Exo, honestly, your right. It is a record for me. I know this is a diss in of itself, but I watch this team and he’s kind of the after thought to me. I still don’t get it.
Willy, I have no doubt that he’s “learning” the defensive side of things. One thing I’ve noticed in his game, though, is that while he is learning what to do and when to do it, he’s still gotta get more jump to do it quicker. I hope your right that he finally produces next year, cuz this year, for the last month, he’s been with cat and strome (pre injury). I thought that would be easy points, but so far that’s ZERO on that line.
Before anyone posts their Hughes and kakko comparisons, remember two things. 1) Dach is not in a league with Hughes and Kakko (yet, if ever). 2) Hughes and kakko and are the devils and rangers problems, not ours. We have an entirely different problem in Dach. How do you get a guy to produce who’s playing with the players he is? Also, the rest of the top 10 may not be in the NHL currently, but don’t kid yourself into thinking Dach should be too. Dach should be in Saskatoon and playing at the world juniors.
Maybe this just me, but I genuinely see that second line going one of two ways. 1) kubalik and Kane end up being way too fast don’t play at speed Dach can play at. Or 2) the only way Dach could possibly start to actually produce points is with Kane. I’ve said for a while, Dach is definitely a player who doesn’t make those around him better or creates his own chances. Dach is just one of those guys who, even with his hands, needs others to make him better. Hopefully, Kane can actually be that one to do it, as he has with many others. Only thing that concerns me is five years from now when Kane is gone, who would step in for Dach?
Also, just out of curiosity, what was your thinking with each line? Cuz I gotta say, these are combinations are very unique and not what I would expect. Interesting and I would love to hear your thought process.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>Brutal. Without Saad, Strome, DeHaan, Shaw, and a coach who'd be lucky to be a assistant coach and a GM who makes trades like Nylander for Jokiharju; the Hawks have turned into hot garbage. Rocky needs to drive his big MB S class to the united center for a closed door meeting with JMC and then slip a pink slip under Bowman's door. It starts with Bowman.</div></div>
Damn ChiHawk, preach!
I don’t know if injuries are enough to describe this team anymore. I really don’t believe a fully healthy roster is a playoff team, especially with JC and Stan at the helm. The effort really just isn’t there. Yes, they did fight back well. However, that first period embodies the laziness this team experiences in some games. Either they are guns blazing or they just don’t show any passion.
JC, I mean really, why do you think a defense first system is adequate on a team with little help on defense?
Stan, you are overdue to be put out on your ass. Joker trade. Shaw for 3 PICKS?! I’m so fed up with your incompetence! Add that to picking Dach AND not sending him to juniors to mature. What are you doing with this team?! You’ve lost it! Please just resign and walk out with some dignity.
Note: not dissing Dach for his performances (this time), we all wanted byram or turcotte. That’s all. Take it easy.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>Hawks aren’t retaining more then $1M, you can count on that and not should they. That said, highly debatable if they should trade him for anything less then a major overpayment.
That hit on Dach should have been a flat out penalty. I can’t imagine any fan of the Hawks finding that hysterical. Hatter, your disdain for Dach is going too far to think a dirty hard hit that could have easily ended in injury is hysterical.</div></div>
I’ll admit, the Saad contract is confusing and as I said in trade box, no one has a clear idea as to what Saad’s value even is. It is frustrating and in all honesty, sure, retention should not be necessary. I’m one of those who believes he has regained a lot of value this year. However, not many others do.
Now, as for the Dach hit, let me be clear. I don’t want to see anyone injured. I wouldn’t wish that on Matt Cooke, Ryan kesler, Claude Lemieux, Robert bortuzzo, and so on, even though I can’t stand any of them and think they are garbage hockey players. However, I’ll be honest, when I saw it happen, my first thought was that it would’ve been a very soft penalty. Dirty? Ok, sure. Penalty? In the strictest sense, I guess, only cuz it was after the whistle. Hard? Let me put it this way: given how Dach went down like a sack of Potatoes, if Tkachuk woulda hit him hard, Dach would still be sitting in the 3rd row of the United center. Yes, I did get a kick out of Tkachuk hitting, of all people, Dach. But I’ve seen that kind of contact happen many times and 98% of those times the two just bounce off each other. Even with Tkachuk putting a shoulder into it, I just did not expect Dach to just get swept off his feet like that.
Best way to put it, Dach (and Kane) had a big hand in allowing that second flames goal, then Dach gets a wake up call to round it out. Let’s also not forget, Crawford thought the puck didn’t even go in initially and DACH put it in his own net!!!! If I’m the goalie, screw you teammate. Tough shift kid. Call it the former player in me, but I did find some humor in it all, Dach or someone else.
But no, I don’t nor do I ever want to see someone injured. That’s way way too far.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>I was at the game last night. It's always good to be back to into the UC and see it live. I didn't go home and dissect any footage so the following are just things I noticed during the game. I was VERY impressed with Boqvist live. Poise with the puck that we all already know about, but I even noticed him with a little physicality. (I did go get one thing...23:08 ATOI last night...wow yeah) As of this morning...I want him to stay with Keith for the rest of the season. There's no one to learn better from and yeah, I know that Dpair isn't the biggest, but he's learning and it's exactly what I want to see these young guys doing. I think this what <a href="/users/Stan_Bowman" target="_blank">@Stan_Bowman</a> was talking about and for Boker, they're following through with it.
As for the desire question. I have zero questions about the desire of Toews/Murphy/Keith/Kampf/Gilbert/Maatta. I mean (2) 5v3 against and you beat them both?!?! That was tremendous effort and the UC was a smart crowd roaring at the end of them both.
Kirby and the hit....
Unfortunately, I did NOT see the hit on Dach live. People suck sometimes... I did go see Jamer break it down at the 2nd intermission. With that said...PRIOR to be actually seeing the hit. I was happy to see Kirby get up and talk back to Tkachuk at the dot the very next time they were on the ice. I was happy to see a little edge in Kirby. He didn't like it and Matthew Tkachuk is a guy that wants to play over the edge. Tkachuck wants to be reined in by the refs and Toronto. In his mind...he didn't go far enough if the league didn't take action. So while it was clearly late and clearly a cheap shot.....welcome to the NHL Kirby. You gotta know where these guys are on the ice. Guess who's next...Auston Watson...then Josh Manson... So again, I'm happy Kirby's ok first at foremost. I don't ever want see ANYONE hurt. I'm happy with JC's and management's decision to play him a lot. This is part of Kirby's development. This is the NHL and you can't tee up questionable situations to Tkachuk or Marchand or Tom Wilson or lots of guys all around the league. They know this isn't the WHL. They're going to hit you and let other people decide whether it was ok or not. I want Kirby to keep at it! He's a tough customer. As a side note. Being relaxed and received a hit when you aren't expecting it is NOT a sign of physical weakness. Heck Kane actually put a check on to Lucic last night...that's honestly more surprising to me than a relaxed big guy taking a seat.
***EDIT*** as a side note. You still have time to edit the Chad Krys buyout without affecting the team or any comments. Just go to edit and click the "x" next to him in the buyout section. :) cheers!</div></div>
I’ll admit, the 5v3 situations were spectacular. Got a chance to regain momentum by killing them. However, they just never did. So, my question is, outside those five guys or the 5v3s, was their any efforts, drive, or desire? Calgary had a very poor game themselves in my opinion, and the hawks were given a golden chance to pounce, but they never did.
As for boqvist, YES, keep him with Keith and keep playing him 20-23 minutes a game, please!! Look, Nicklas Lidstrom at no point in his career was known for physical dominance, and if boqvist can just continue to grow smarter and more poised game in and game out, he can too! So I’m in complete agreement there, but I love boqvist, mainly cuz I love Finnish and Swedish players more than any other country. So much skill and elegance, they just know how to play a beautiful game.
Lastly, I didn’t notice the dach conversation with Tkachuk after the hit. In all honesty, if he gave him a talking to, good for him. He’s 6’4’’, I really hope he actually toughens up and learns to take more hits, if not do some hitting himself!!!! In no way do I think that should have been a penalty, I’m sorry, but I don’t. Dach needs to learn to pay attention to when these guys are on the ice, the wilsons, Watsons, and Tkachuks of the world that is. Either way, Tkachuk in no way is shaking in his boots over Dach. Dach is a child who’s all talk at this point. He hasn’t laid anyone out. Dach can tell Tkachuk and pretend he has an edge all he wants, but kirby, kid, words are cheap, actions matter. Put someone on their ass or get some points in spite of those goons.