May 9, 2019
New York Rangers
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Masonh618</b></div><div>I heard this same argument last offseason with Kakko. In addition, I'd accept a 1st and a 3rd in exchange for Lafreniere at $6M. Miller is going to be the priority extension, and I have no worries that it won't be completed before the offer sheet window opens.</div></div>
I don’t know how Miller should be prioritized over Chytil….but that’s not even a discussion worth having because by hook or crook, NYR need to do whatever it takes to get Miller, LaF, and Chytil extended. That said- potential returns on all 3 have to be listened to….and in the case of a 6M OS to LaF, the return 1st and 3rd might just be the best move. But I just don’t see that as realistic, as he is playing to a bridge deal rather than a massive overpay.
The Cap situation as it stands is razor thin (but not impossible) for next year. It really is in Drury’s best interest to get these guys locked ASAP. Should Miller and Chytil continue on this year’s trajectory, they will only get more expensive. If that happens then NYR should have a pecking order of who gets dealt…all on contracts other than minimum or ELC would be on this list. My guess is guys at the top of this list would be Goodrow, Trouba, and Lindgren. Other than Goodrow, any other move is probably going to be real unpopular (Lindgren) or real uncomfortable (Trouba- due to probably salary retention required).
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Shakabakes</b></div><div>I'm more of a Lafreniere detractor, to this point. If it's the Rangers screwing him up, then so be it. But when Chytil and Kakko struggled in the beginning, there were still certain facets of their game that made up for their lack of point production. And then eventually, the other areas caught up.
Lafreniere is absolutely invisible. Despite the lack of production, there is no other area of his game where he sticks out. I know it's probably wrong to move him this early, but in year 3, he's not showing the same progression as some of the other young Forwards before him.
And while I have liked Kravtsov 's improvement of late, they're jerking him around, too. His hijinks last year with Drury included, and I don't see him being around for the long haul.
The Two 1st Rounders will likely be later in the Round. Solid Draft class or not, they can be had.</div></div>
I make no bones about NOT being a fan of moving 1sts for rentals...but I also acknowledge that reality is that at least one of those picks will be dealt. If that's the case, Tarasenko and Meier are far and away the best options to add a top 6 F. While Kane might help to make a daunting PP even better, either Meier or Tarasenko would also be helpful there- yet would be better at driving 5X5 play. I think Tarasenko is most likely the guy- only because he probably wont be as expensive as Meier (beyond the 2023 1st).
As far as Gavrikov, it does look as if (considering last year TDL and trades mentioned here) a 1st + will be involved to get him...to upgrade the 3rd pair, I don't think NYR will consider this- unless they have other plans for Lindgren or Miller after the season (doubtful on both). Max I see spending on 3LD is a 3rd + a distant prospect.
one other thing...I know NYR really have no ability to extend anyone they pick up (without losing Cap or a player who needs an extension)- but any idea on what reasonable contracts look like for Gavrikov and Tarasenko? I assume Meier will be in the stratosphere. (BTW his career stats are a mirror image of Buch!!)
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>TheEarthmaster</b></div><div>The other thing to say about 1st round picks is that even if you hit you probably won't see that you hit for another two years or so if you're drafting late in the first round, which is not ideal for a team that, on the cusp or not, is sort of in a win-now mode.
I guess the thing that I take issue with is the aversion to spending the assets when my view of the situation- and I'm not a Rangers fan, so you know, what do I know- is this is probably your best time to use those assets. The likelihood of winning after trading for a rental is always going to be low. The likelihood of winning after you don't trade for a rental is also going to be low. Only one team wins, that's just how it works, so I feel like framing it as "so many teams didn't win after spending a 1st round pick on a rental, therefore spending a 1st round pick on a rental is likely going to be a waste" is extremely limiting.
I'm not saying it has to be Tarasenko, but I do feel like if the Rangers stand pat and use both of those 1st round picks in the draft this year, that's malpractice. I more or less agree that they're not one piece away from being bulletproof. But I look at this team- especially their forward group- and I'm wondering how many more kicks at the can their core really has. Panarin at 31, Kreider at 31, Zibanejad at 29, Trocheck at 29. It just seems like, ready or not, you kinda gotta go for it now, because the likelihood of a drop off in fire power in the next two or three years seems pretty high. If you draft with those picks and hit, what's the team going to look like in two or three years when those picks are difference makers?
This is all doubly true considering they have two 1sts. They can spend one and pocket another for the draft and pretty much break-even no matter what happens in the playoffs.</div></div>
I have to give it to you- you lay down a good argument as to why they should use at least 1 of their 1sts to improve chances in the playoff push…and yes- making no moves (while others do) does not improve chances. BUT….if this team were in a position to add a player for the Cup run who will be around at least for next year (albeit preferably even longer) then I am much less averse to moving 1 or even both 1sts. But a 2-3 month rental? I just see putting the eggs in one basket as too risky. And even though they have (2) 1sts- remember- one is the return from Nils, who is on his way to becoming very comfortable and productive in DAL. So I do not look at that pick as expendable.
Unfortunately, NYR are in the Cap position they are in and with the age of players you mention. While Mika, Pan, Kreider, and Trocheck clocks are ticking- that in itself doesn’t expedite when LaF, Kakko, Chytil, Schneider, or Krav or Gaut are ready. This is my main point to make small moves at TDL rather than a big splash. Because even with a big move involving Tarasenko, Meier, or Kane…too much of the team is still developing. If things progress (as all NYR fans hope) then maybe next year is the time for “all in mode” at TDL. Because this year they are still not there- that’s my aversion to burning one or two 1sts for a rental this year. And believe me- this very topic is a very big topic of debate among NYR fans…there is no consensus either way- and guess what? It really doesn’t matter! Drury’s gonna do what he’s gonna do whatever fans on either side of this debate say!
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mvp13</b></div><div>NYR already have another 1st round pick, making this different than the 2010s in my opinion. In addition, even if Nils or Krav find their way, Nils had no place on the NYR roster behind Fox, Trouba, and Schneider, all who will solidly be the RD for the next 5 years. Kravstov can essentially be replaced "long term" by Othman or Cuyle... it's not like Kravstov has been showing much of anything with his chances in the top 6, etc. Regarding Jones, he had a fair shot at being the LD with Schneider, and it didn't work. Schneider seems to work best with a big and heavy defenseman (Harpur this year, Braun last year). NYR should not pair a small skill defenseman with Schneider if they want the best out of him. The 3rd pair has been lights out since Harpur has been put in, even if that sounds extremely silly to say. This is why I view Jones as extremely expendable, as there's simply no room for him, and he is supposed to be "good". Might as well get something for him
I'm really not sure what the chemistry point is about... I don't think Kane has ever had a reputation or history of being a bad teammate. He's won 3 Cups and been on one team his whole career. Obviously this is a risk with any player you acquire, draft, etc. This is a moot point in my book, unless it's special cases like "confirmed" locker room problems
You don't think the team is improved 5 on 5 in the proposed lines...? I'm fairly astounded. You get a "real" top line right wing in Kane, and you move down your current top line player to the middle six as a result. I'm very confused how this doesn't improve 5 on 5 play, which is what NYR needs the most, and fairly obviously does... Kane has "bad" stats this year, but he's playing on arguably the worst team in the League, talent wise
The valid point is Kane won't be back, unless NYR move on from Chytil and Kane takes a very team friendly deal, or the cap improves more than expected. It's definitely intended to be a rental on my part. I view all the pieces being moved for Kane as expendable pieces that likely won't be around next year regardless. Whether they are moved for Kane, for other pieces, or simply not signed. Instead of getting a bunch of depth pieces like bogdown suggested, I would rather use our expendable pieces on one that'd really make a difference
I don't know what sport we are all watching, but NYR made the conference finals last year... the expectation has absolutely got to be to continue on that trajectory. The rebuild is over. There are still plenty of prospects and picks with these 3 pieces gone. I don't think NYR are awful status quo, but getting a "real" top line RW is really the only thing they need this TDL, and Kane is the absolute best choice right now, especially given the Panarin connection</div></div>
To your 1st point- this does seem to be much of the justification for burning that 1st on a rental. I beg to differ, though. I don't look at any pick or prospect as expendable. That said, they are assets- which can (and should, when appropriate) be moved for other assets. And (my opinion here) the more premium the asset, the more the team should be looking at a return beyond the immediate.
As far as your chemistry point...I think you misunderstood my initial point...has nothing to do with possibility of a locker room cancer. My point is you never know how players will mesh with others. The conclusion is that Panarin and Kane will pick up where they left off. That's actually a reasonable assumption. But how about if Kane and Zib don't hit it off? I mean in a hockey sense. And TDL to season end is a short period to get this answer. Perfect example is Trocheck/Panarin...no issues there with the players or personalities- but they have displayed almost zero chemistry together on the ice.
As far as 5X5 play- sure on paper it looks like this team should be better...but who knows what the infusion of Kane would do to the lines. Gallant's "model" for a line seems to combine a passer with a shooter, with a defensive forward. Don't think Pan-Zib-Kane satisfies this model...but you never know- maybe Gallant does veer from his model due to the star players involved here.
Regarding the conference finals run...sure was fun to watch- but much of their success was based on Shest standing on his head. Great having a lights out goalie- but I would be real careful to judge what this team really is when it was really based on how far Shest took them. And in all honesty, not much has changed. So you can add Kane, Meier, or Horovat...and the team still will really go only as far as the goalie will let them. Why? Because guys like Kakko, Miller, and Chytil are still just scratching the surface as to what they can be. And others like LaF, Schneider, and Krav (if he stays around) still have an awful lot to learn. That's more than 25% of the roster just mentioned...w/o mention of a few more players in bottom 6 and bottom pair who NYR realistically need to upgrade. So yeah- in my opinion this team is nowhere near the level of 3-4 other eastern teams and 2 or 3 western teams. They are not ready for a realistic Cup push. So rather than expend premium assets for unrealistic expectations, I feel it is a much better idea to move maybe a few distant prospects and/or later picks to upgrade the bottom 6, bottom pair, and provide some depth. And then- get behind Shest to again see how far he takes us!
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Garak</b></div><div>It was during the Hockey Canada Foundations Golf and Gala event months after the WJC-20. No specifics have come out about that whole situation yet, but, using process of elimination, I think it is pretty clear that Formenton is the main culprit in the whole thing. I think they are trying to keep things hush hush, sweep it under the rug, and hope everyone just forgets about it while Formenton just fades away in Europe. Same thing CHI has been doing with the Beach situation. They think getting rid of everyone and moving on is enough. But it really isn't, and they are going to need to talk publicly and openly sooner or later.
That all being said, yeah, Formenton holds little to no value at this time, and most likely will never play in the NHL again.</div></div>
Thanks for that info...unfortunately it supports what I was thinking. Coupled with the NHL's track record for dealing with "uncomfortable issues", does seem his future is all about Europe.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HOCKEYBOY448</b></div><div>What is the obsession with Kane? Everyone seems to live in a fairly land thinking they trade for him and it means a cup. The Rangers made countless deals like that in the 2010’s and guess what they never worked. Repeating the mistakes of yesterday will further destroy any chance this team has at one day winning a cup. Teams that win cups develop from within and surround those guys with talent. The biggest issue is how impatient people are and that’s what will be the downfall of this team.</div></div>
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mvp13</b></div><div>And how does acquiring one player destroy the idea of "develop from within"? Nearly half of this roster was drafted by NYR, or acquired at very young ages? Kravstov is just not going to make it on this team. NYR wants to win now, letting go of him is a small price to pay.
Patrick Kane is an extremely different case of other players NYR have gotten as rentals... one is a first ballot Hall of Famer, the other is Eric Staal... there's really no comparison. NYR have the expendable assets to make this move without hurting their future in any noticeable way.</div></div>
2 different perspectives here. Let me start by saying it's refreshing to see the way Hockeyboy goes against against the impatience which for sure has derailed this team in the past. The thing is...it's not really about their willingness to go all in at TDL- it's reckless risk taking. It actually starts with an assessment of the group. Is this team REALLY P. Kane away winning the Cup? I say no...so with this assessment- why give up premium assets for someone who wont be here next year- when this group (should) be much more ready to push hard and compete for the Cup?
And MVP, no disrespect to your opinion...you seem to think that because it is P. Kane we are talking here- that the risk is acceptable to take on to try to win this year. If that is your take- then fair enough...I just see it as short sighted. Reason being- my assessment of the risk they take on with getting Kane:
1. Cost. Who knows what that 1st becomes, or if Z. Jones is the next Nils, or if Krav finds his way. But in this Cap era, no team is ever done compiling prospects and building from within. And 1 more thing about prospects...maybe if NYR prospect pool were set up more like BUF or DAL prospect pools I'd be more willing to part with the 2023 1st...but reality is beyond Jones, the only prospect projected for "quick" impact at NHL is Othmann- yet I'd like to see him play beyond junior before I rush to that judgement. NYR are not done building the prospect pool.
2. Chemistry- the assumption is made this is no issue because the way he has played with Panarin...but there others on ice, on the bench, in locker room, etc. Chemistry is always a question when the lineup is changed- ESPECIALLY changed with a main piece.
3. What is really being improved? It might be unfair to say Kane is what this year's #'s say...but any semblance of truth there- and Kane has become a PP specialist. Will that help NYR? I guess- but where most help is needed on this team is 5X5 play. I think the current roster already has the players to have a lethal PP..."More lethal" not really a bonus if 5x5 play continues to lag.
4. Health- in a league where health and injury info is kept air tight, most info out there about Kane's hip is probably noise...but doesn't mean to disregard. Especially as NHL players get though early 30's, injuries- not just debilitating, but also nagging injuries- become much more prevalent.
5. Beyond this year- The ONLY certainty...unless there is a major roster shakeup, Kane will not be a NYR come training camp 2023.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>Come on man, a hip impingement doesn't mean a hip replacement LMAO. It's a arthroscopic procedure to clean out the hip joint (the ball and socket in lame man's terms)...2 hour procedure if that. 30% of the general public has one and most people don't even know it unless they push themselves physically.
Kane's not engaged because he's surrounded by one of the worst teams the league, certainly the Hawks, has ever seen. It's understandable from that perspective. Hard to stay motivated to play at a high level when the front office is saying "Patty, we're tanking" and all the trade talk he has to hear from the media, friends, family, etc.
I also didn't explain he's considerably worth more then a 1st. Reading comprehension buddy</div></div>
Reading comprehension?? Really?
Come on, Hawk…very mild put down- but nevertheless an insult unrelated to hockey…Please excuse me if I took your comments for another in the sea of commenters who believe the return on Kane should be at or better than the Giroux return- which was significantly worth more than a single 1st. But if you want to start going down the insult route…I’m not interested in that type of back and forth.
As far as your response to him being disengaged- I get it…not a fun situation to be in- but he is a professional- and well paid at that. I really can’t comment further because I’m not around him every day, in the locker room, witnessing effort at practices, etc…but just sayin- those who mail it in when the going gets tough- are probably not who I’d want to add for a grueling Cup run.
Regarding the hip- even if I were a Dr., I couldn’t diagnose him from internet info- let alone from info here! Maybe it’s something of concern, maybe it’s not…all this “noise” is part of the “game” which goes on leading up to 3/3. Im sure whatever team picks him up, that team’s doctor would have a say.
In the end, everything I’ve said about Kane- none is meant to diminish what he is as a player or what he’s accomplished. I just think that for the amount of risk NYR would be taking on in adding him, their chance at winning the Cup is too marginally improved (if improved at all).