May 12, 2017
Toronto Maple Leafs
2nd Favourite Team
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood</b></div><div>Jesus Christ man, you saying whatever you want to make your words reasonable, doesn't make them reasonable. Grundstrom was a disposable piece, a prospect that may or may not have ever done anything. I honeslty can't believe this conversation. You talk Manson up way beyond his ability and results so you can justify your insane ask, that doesn't work because reality speaks louder than fans desire. And now you are talking up a B prospect who has amounted to nothing and was deemed expendable by the Leaf because he was in fact never an A prospect to make your argument better. Sandin is an A prospect, Liljegren is an A prospect, Robertson is an A prospect. You can use whatever obscure quotes from whoever you want, but the reality is just reality. Blowing things out of proportion to make your arguement. I am very certain that you 100% know that Grundstrom and Sandin, or Liljegren are not even remotely close to being the same level of prospects, ever.</div></div>
I mean, you can say anything you want. Doesn't make it right. The best part of all of this is when we are talking prospects, you very clearly add "who has amounted to nothing". Lots of solid prospects don't make it, ever. That, again, was never my point. When you become an expert on prospects, let me know. I'll be waiting ;)
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mytduxfan</b></div><div>*rolls eyes* Here we go again with TOR fans overvaluing prospects. Lijlegren and Sandin have top 4 upside at best. Could they surpass that? Sure. But there is nothing in their current play that would suggest they'll be anything more than top 4 D-man... and that's if they even make the jump from AHL to NHL (surprise surprise - prospects have risk attached to them!). Liljegren in particular is lagging behind the other D-man in his draft class, even D man drafted below him.
So what you're telling me is that a prospect who has top 4 POTENTIAL, just POTENTIAL, is worth more than an top 6 winger currently in the NHL playing + 2 x B prospects + 1st round pick? They worth more than that entire package?</div></div>
We cannot have this conversation if you do not understand how prospects are valued, both league-wide amongst all 31 teams, and internally. But to answer your specific question, when you look at the Leafs depth, do you honestly believe Kapanen, a fringe top-6 on a good contract with control and lightning quick speed, has more value to the Leafs then a B+ right handed defensive prospect that basically will cost them the league minimum for the next 3 seasons, filling out a potential as part of their top-4, and someone who has improved his defensive game tremendously since joining the Marlies. The answer every time is yes, Liljegren is worth more to the Leafs than Kapanen and has higher trade value on the trade market because of his potential.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood</b></div><div>Grundstrom is now 22 years old with 25 NHL games under his belt and can't make the LA Kings, seems Scott Wheeler was overly optimistic. Also not sure if you are aware, but this site isn't the Leafs front office, and as for all the Manson talk, I want it to end as well. Its just ridiculous.</div></div>
If you are trying to compare a Muzzin deal in comparison to something the Leafs do at present, you have to weigh them at the value of the assets at time the deal was made. Whether you believe it, or not, and whatever he's become now, does not matter. At the time of the Muzzin deal, the Leafs traded an A prospect. That's the value added to the Muzzin deal. So, if you want to make a comparison, do it the right way.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Leafs09</b></div><div>What bothers me on , is everyone on here thinks lets put Sandin and Lily together, that will solve it, and they are going to be great,
There is a reason why Lily has not stepped in. Both are too Small and not developed enough yet to be in that position. I think they will be good, but why rush these kids?
NHL is a pretty big jump in level of play from the AHL.</div></div>
First of all, definitely not "everyone" feels that Sandin and Liljegren should play together, let alone that Liljegren should even be in the lineup. At least call it like it is. My point is you have 2 big-game defenders out. You have Travis Dermott now being relied upon for more and bigger minutes, and although the Leafs won last night, Travis did not have a good game. All season, defensively, Barrie has been a bit of a question mark. Marincin is just pure awful. Holl is hit or miss without Muzzin on his left. And Ceci, unfortunately, is what he is. So, the Leafs are treading water on their back end trying to shore up some holes temporarily. What do you do? Well, Dubas could make a trade, but between the inflexible cap situation the Leafs are in, and Dubas being Dubas, I doubt that happens until after the all-star break. So, the only other alternative is a call up. Who has played well on D for the Marlies? If you've paid attention to the baby Leafs/watched any of their games, you would know that their 2 best defenders were Sandin and Liljegren. So, do you give them a shot as a reward for some great play, or do you keep them down there to further "develop". If you believe in the sport philosophy of rewarding good play, then I don't think the Leafs, or rather, Dubas, have much of a choice. Especially with how he played at the World Juniors, I fully expect 19-year old Sandin to stick with the Leafs for the rest of the season, unless he gives them a reason not to be recalled. If last night's game is any indication, Sandin was probably the Leaf's best defender. At 5'11, he skates incredibly well, smooth, can clearly give you offense and can lay hits as well. Saying they are too small is a complete excuse for rewarding your prospects when the time calls for it. As for Liljegren, he's really stepped up his defensive game since starting in the AHL. I am actually, honestly, unsure why, he hasn't slotted into a game yet ahead of Martin Marincin. I have full confidence that whether they play as a pairing, or are split up but are both in the lineup, they will at least show flashes as to why this team is so high on them. They are young, yes, so expect mistakes, but it's for everyone's benefit to see what the Leafs have to work with because guess what? Next year, I expect both to be full-time Leafers.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mytduxfan</b></div><div>I think you're overvaluing Manson. He's not worth that much. I mean, Kaps + Timashov + Bracco + 1st is far too much. For ANA to move Manson, we'd probably need a young prospect who can replace him in the future + pick. So we'd need either Liljegren or Sandin coming back with a mid-round pick attached. Kapanen is no better than what we already have and he's more expensive. Same goes for Timashov and Bracco. We have stacks of young winger prospects. We need good young D prospects with top 4 upside, or a franchise forward prospect if you've got one hiding in the cupboards :P.</div></div>
You cannot say in the same sentence, overvalue (on my proposed deal) then throw in names like Liljegren or Sandin. Either of these prospects have more (trade) value than Kapanen, so what you are saying is totally incorrect, as far as "overvaluing" is concerned. The Leafs have an overabundance of forwards, so whatever deal Toronto makes for a defender, will likely be forwards going the other way. Considering the mess Anaheim is in, I would think Anaheim would jump on my deal. As far as Manson's value is concerned, not a chance the Leafs part with either prospect blueliner.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood</b></div><div>Muzzin didn't cost anything close to Kapanen.</div></div>
Let's compare, shall we. What brought Muzzin to Toronto was, arguably (talk to Scott Wheeler if you have an issue with prospect grading here) an A prospect in Grundstrom and B right-handed D prospect in Durzi in addition to a 1st round draft pick. Muzzin came with 1.5 years of of control and was 29 years old at the time. Keep in mind that you seem to pay more for handedness, as in right-handed, when it comes to defenders, because there are less of them, and certainly less decent ones around. By most accounts, Bracco is a B prospect, so there are holes to fill on the deal. Kapanen is young and has control. Trying to be as objective as possible, I would consider him a borderline top-6 right now. What you are getting in Manson is 2.5 years of control, and the kid is right-handed, 28 years old. He skates exceptionally well considering his frame (not to say he is fast) and is not just a pure hitter. He can defend well, positionally, and can kill penalties effectively. I would call him a solid top-4. So does Kapanen = Manson? I would say no. Does Kapanen = a 1st rounder and A prospect? I would say no, so even with Bracco added, and accounting for the extra control, handedness and age, I would say at minimum, such a deal would require Kapanen, Bracco and a reasonably high draft pick (like a 2nd rounder or better) for Manson alone. And that would be the minimum. Now consider the fact that other teams might be more desperate than Toronto for defense and might be willing to offer more, it would be in the Leafs interest to get something done quickly, even if they have to overpay a little. Overpayment in the form of Timashov, to me, is a throw away. So Kapanen, Timashov, Bracco and a 2nd would be a very reasonable (not necessarily fair) considering the market.