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TopLineTom43

Samson4theVez
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Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 7:54 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mondo</b></div><div>matthews and marner contracts were signed with the intention of them remaining ppg players.

both boston guys signed in september right before training camp, which is what marner did.

also, i don't quite understand why you're incredibly anal about toronto giving their top guys too much money. people always criticize leafs fans for being too harsh on the players, yet here you are repremending toronto fans for not trying to chase their top scoring players out of the city because the coach has lost the room.</div></div>

I’m not anal about it. I’m simply saying that they are overpaid. It’s true they are overpaid. You are allowed to say it. Doesn’t mean they are bad or it’s not insulting. They make too much money. Nobody was chasing them out of town. That’s a very dramatic take on this. They are RFA the gm has all the leverage. They weren’t going to sit out. They could have signed them to a 2-3 year bridge deal for a reasonable money they gave out this deal after the new TV deal was done. Boston signed those guys assuming they peaked and wouldn’t improve? Honestly leafs signed them and both players probably won’t ever do better than Marner did last season. Again that my opinion. Again I’m not wasting anymore time on this but the coach lost the locker room or do the player refuse to play his system that has won a cup and hold medals? Honestly idfc I’m not a fan but I would be upset as a leafs fan that we sunk 30+ million on 3 guys knowing that they got every cent they could and didn’t give the team a dollar for anyone else. Marner and Matthews are great but their greed will end up costing this team when they need to sign complementary talent. Also Anderson and Reilly
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 5:48 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>I just don't think they are overpaid. I think when you have a terrific young star you need to look at what they are going to do in the next couple of years and try to get a fair deal for that time. For years teams have been operating under the premise that you have to earn those big contracts, so stars did great for their first 10 years (Doughty) and then they sign their big long term max deal. The problem is those players are getting paid for what they did, not what they can do. What TO is doing is paying these guys for what they think they are going to be able to do. Its risky sure, but its also a much smarter plan than to wait and then overpay them later when they can't live up to their contract. In the case of Marner, I think he'll still look like a good contract very soon, and then when these guys are older there won't be that argument of "Hey I took my pay cut back then, now I want my money". It also will give more power to the management team later on when they can say to Marner when he's turning 29 or whatever and needing a new contract, "listen Mitch, we know you've been great for the past 6 years and we want to continue this, so we'll give you either term or a big cap hit. Not both." There will be mountains more of evidence proving that paying guys huge money into their mid 30's is stupid so they'll either get short term deals again or long term at below their market value.</div></div>

I don’t disagree that most ufa signing from ages 28 and up are all normally terrible but at that point I would be more willing to pay you for what you did than to pay you for what I think you’ll do. Like Kane and Toews. Them signing for cheap allowed them to win a cup. The deals aren’t good now but who cares they won 3 cup. I don’t think either of our opinions are wrong I just prefer to pay you after you have done good.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 5:13 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Matthews is better than Eichel, Eichel makes 10.5 for 8 years. Matthews was going to get more, he accomplished more and his ceiling is higher. So Matthews was getting over Tavares, no question. To get him to 8 years it was going to be for the same cap percentage that McDavid signed for which at the time Matthews signed, that was going to be over 13.5. So the team came up with a contract that worked for both sides. That is the market we live in. That one is fine.

Nylander is a bargain, his contract is the best on the team. I don't care what anyone says, he has elite talent and so much untapped potential that his contract will only look better as he progresses.

Marner on the other hand isn't very good. There is no one on this planet that is going to convince me that Marner is worth over 5 million dollars more a year than Nylander. Marner should be 8 years x9 at the very most.

If the Leafs end up having to move a piece to balance their roster (I really don't think it'll ever come to that), Marner is the one I'd trade, he'd bring the biggest return and likely save money.</div></div>

Well Eichel was buffalos only superstar and he was overpaid for that reason. Realistically he would make 8.5-9m. Again the market isn’t set I stone. Matthews should have the wherewithal to understand that Eichel could make more money bc they didn’t have as many talented high caliber players to sign. Matthews then set the bar for Marner who also got overpaid. It’s a slippery slope. And Matthews isn’t worth 13.5 million that’s just silly. He wanted McDavid money but Matthews isn’t even On McDavids level. McDavid is miles better and that’s not an insult. McDavid would compete with Crosby when Crosby was 21. Nylander isn’t a bargain he isn’t overpaid he’s fairly paid. Marner contract would be hard to move imo. You make 11 million you better score 100 points.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 4:52 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>blowing_the_zone</b></div><div>Solid assessment of the current situation. Two things though:

1) I don't think these kids are wondering why they're struggling at all. They know the implications their salaries have on their teams cap, and what that's meant for the roster. It's why, though, that I wonder if they ever wish they woulda took less. I doubt they do, but I wonder..

2) I'm a big Kadri fan but I actually think the leafs make that trade all day long. Kerfoot has been super impressive in the 3C role, and doing a better job of it, at a cheaper hit, than Kadri did last year. Losing Kerfoot for an extended period of time is going to sting, methinks..</div></div>

Only thing I have to say and I honestly don’t watch enough leafs hockey so correct me if I’m wrong. Kadri was that gritty guy you absolutely hate to play against. He was able to be a #2 center used as #3 but he was that guy that you had to have your head up around. Honestly if he played smarter In The playoffs you might have beat Boston. I would rather have him. Guys like him are priceless. I’m a Tom Wilson guy (boooooo) but that type of player is priceless. When he can play all 3 zones and all 3 situations.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 4:46 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Crosby's cap percentage is pretty close to Matthews and Tavares I believe (for when he signed his contract) so that again is a flawed assessment. In 3 years McDavid won't have the richest contract in hockey, it'll be some of these other young guys like Laine, or Point or whoever. They will be making huge dollars and at that time people will be saying, well Matthews is only making 11.7. Which at that time will be a silly comparison because the market changes and salaries grow. I don't buy the whole cap hell situation mainly because TO doesn't have any bad contracts. Not like Boston with Backes, or Laad, or Seabrook, or Erickson or whoever. Lucic is a terrible signing but Matthews? No Matthews will be one of the best goal scorers of his generation. Marner is one of the best play makers in the game and Tavares is a legit top 10 player in the league, that is money well spent. If Kapanen made 5 million that would be a problem. Dubas hasn't and won't be making those sorts of bad calls.</div></div>

Off topic but kind of related...look up the signing on July 1 2016 my god they are terrible. I think the leafs have a ton of talented players and that’s never an issue. They are just signed for More money than I personally think they are worth. Again this is where we disagree but imagine this team with guys signed for this

Matthews 10m x8
Marner 9m X 8
Nylander 7m x8

Tavares was a UFA and you had to pay him. He’s also been great for them.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 4:31 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>That is another accepted truth on here that is just wrong. When Crosby signed his last deal he would have been a FA had he not signed it. But he never was a FA. Should we go down the list of top end players that have never tested free agency? The list is extremely long. Its basically every player over the past 15 years. How many left their teams to test free agency? JT. That is it.

So what is likely, that Matthews signed a 5 year deal so he could immediately leave? Or did he and Dubas figure out a term and cap hit that worked for the team and they'll just do the same thing when he can sign an extension? Because if we are using the past 15 years to figure out what is likely, this whole Matthews is leaving in 5 years ideal is pure fantasy.</div></div>

Did Crosby bend the penguins over a barrel for a top 5 salary in the nhl. Bridge deal are great when the come at a low number. Matthews deal is only acceptable for a 10 year deal. That’s impossible so his deal I laughable. It’s too much money with no term at all. So by the time it becomes a good deal he gets a newer bigger deal. Again everyone has an opinion. We have two different ones and that’s fine.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 4:25 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>I am just tired of all the outdated, poorly thoughtout rhetoric that is just fundamentally wrong. Markets change, players make more. In 3 years when Brayden Point has 3 years of 90+ points or more, how much is he going to get, keep in mind this will be after the upcoming US TV deal and the seattle expansion. Will he be looking at a 8 year deal in the 14 million range? What about Tkachuk in Calgary? That guys QO is 9 million in 3 years, whats he going command in that situation?

I just think that people don't understand much beyond what they hear on TV and those guys just say whatever they need to to get clicks and views. Its all overblown hot takes that rarely tell the whole story and never look beyond instant gratification.</div></div>

I Mean I understand the business end of it. I really do. The part I don’t understand is that these young guys come in and want to get paid these ridiculous salaries and wonder why their teams arent good. Who would babs want Barrie and kerfoot or kadri? Brown and zait or Ceci. They had to change ..what 1/3 of the roster to adjust to the massive dollars Matthews and Marner are making. It’s just greed but again money puts a roof over your head no Stanley cups.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 4:15 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>blowing_the_zone</b></div><div>Yeah, it's not ideal at all. But it still gives them a 5 yr window with the core that they've ID'd. That's lots of time to make something happen, if something's going to happen.

I have less issue with term than I do with the aav. But even that is what it is at this point. No point beating the three of them over their heads with their very fat wallets at this point.

There's bigger problems right now that need some tending to. I think alot of it sits with coaching but there could be more to it. Expectations. Personalities/ ego etc etc.

Regardless, I like they way they look going forward. It just might take them longer than expected.. that's ok. Gotta keep moving towards that north star</div></div>

I mean they can obviously win but you need to buy into the coaches system and leave your ego at the door. Look at Ovechkin and Trotz. He needed to learn to play defense. Could you imagine if those to couldn’t get on the same page. We won 2 press trophies and a cup In the last 3 years with him. Also when you have guys getting paid that much you need to draft and develop perfectly. No real room for error. Your 1st rounder need to play like it and you get the point. Imo they have draft really well luckily for the leafs
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 3:57 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Everyone is better than all the Leaf players, yeah I've heard this before and I just don't care.</div></div>

You seem insecure. I didn’t say that. I simply compared a guy who took a team deal to another player on the leafs. I was just having a discussion didn’t mean to upset you. I think the leafs have good players but their massive contracts make it hard to just focus on their play. They have too 5 expectations now. People tend to look at the dollar amount instead of the players ability. If nylander made 4 million I’d certainly would have a different opinion on him. If Matthews scored 100 points and 55 goals I would still think he’s overpaid but I could justify it. If they won a Stanley cup with these players I could justify it.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 3:49 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Using Boston as an example of how to pay your stars is not a good one. Marchand signed his current deal prior to him really exploding offensively. I'd wager Pastrnak wishes he would have held out for more money or taken a bridge deal and Bergeron had never has as much offensive success as he's had recently until after his last contract was signed. Those 3 are all making way less than they should be, but its not because they all got together and decided to take less, they signed their deals and then exploded production wise. If they were all free agents now, none would be making as little as they are now.</div></div>

Krug has come out and said he’ll take a discount to stay in Boston. Again that’s your opinion. Boston’s players signed very fair deals and they set a standard for the rest of the team. Guentzel in Pittsburgh is a lot better than Nylander and signed for cheaper to help the penguins. Guys who want to win understand that they can’t sign 10-11 million dollar deals. Players want to be rich then win if possible. I don’t blame them. It’s a business at the end of the day
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2019 at 3:39 p.m.
Thread: Fire Babock
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>yikes</b></div><div>I agree Toronto has poorly handled cap kinda but there’s arguments that and mainly they had to keep these guys. But Boston is not a good point. Boston’s culture is kuch different and those guys bought in. It’s not the leafs fault their players didn’t take cuts. Bergeron Marchand Chara and go on took cuts and set a culture and mentality together. Tavares is the only guy that really took a pay cut. The players woulda made that money elsewhere the leafs had to keep them; I love knocking the leafs but it’s really the same situation as bosorn</div></div>

It’s nobodies fault I guess. Boston cares more about winning than personal gains. 30 years Matthews and Marner will be rich and that’s what really matters to them