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Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 20 at 11:58 p.m.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>WN88</b></div><div>MAN.

THIS ROSTER ISNT GOOD. Like who tf do you want him to play and how would you want them to play??!?!

People just demand change without actually explaining what should/how...

It's just simple logic. Sheldon Keefe is our most successful coach in regular season history. Significant overhaul over the off-season results in a worse team because of the coach???</div></div>

What do people think a new coach will accomplish with this roster, aside from the "new coach bump"?

Are the forwards going to score more?
Not likely enough to matter. They are already 6th in the NHL as a group. There's not a lot of room for improvement there.

Are the defense going to give up less?
There's room for improvement there, as they are mid-bottom third in shots, goals, HDSA, etc.
The question is whether that is a personnel issue, a goaltending issue, or a coaching issue.

I think you have to answer the goaltending question first when that group consists of a rookie with 30 games played and a guy who is almost a full 1.0 GAA and 0.6 SV% worse in the same number of games with the same team. Jones is a 3rd stringer who had a good 10 game stretch with 7 strong performances, but has returned closer to expectations in his last 4 starts.

That may be all it takes to get the rest of the team in line.
They could be giving up more high danger chances because they don't have the confidence in their goaltending to stop the less dangerous shots, just as an example.

This isn't like Edmonton, where a number of players were underperforming on top of their goaltending issues.
The players eventually returned to normal and that has allowed Skinner to regain his form.
That was happening with or without a coaching change (imo).

Not really the case in Toronto. There are not enough players underperforming, it's simply a lot of players who's normal performance is not enough.
That's to be expected when 60% of your team is made up of rookies and budget options.

There are legitimate reasons to believe a new coach may have more success in how he deploys his assets, but that impact won't be as great as believed.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 21 at 10:05 a.m.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>RipNasty</b></div><div>When the losses come off the other team just our coaching Keefe he absolutely deserves the heat. The team rarely comes prepared to play and that is the coach. He doesn't hold his own players accountable either. Keefe's record is a mirage. I think he's a fine regular season coach of he has the players he wants (the core paired with a bottom 6 of defensive low risk possession guys) but when you play a team in a 7 game series you have to make adjustments to what the opposition does. Every team has made changes that sink TO in the playoffs but the Leafs have never done that under Keefe. It's always the same thing, the Leafs look good for a game or two and then the offence disappears. Why? Because what TO does offensively never changes. The players do exactly what Keefe wants and when it stops working it's because the other team has made adjustments. Keefe doesn't do that and that's why he needs to go.</div></div>

Again, you’re one of the users on here that wants to blame the players when they win but not when they lose. You can’t have it both ways.

You say the team doesn’t come to play.. the was the same issue under Babcock. Too many slow starts that cost the team. So how can you keep blaming the coaches when it’s the same core that has the issues with multiple coaches? Hell the same players can’t make a line change without getting too many men on the ice and that was the same under Babcock - that’s a personnel issue. Not the coach.

Doesn’t hold players accountable? He benches guys all the time. Liljegren gets benched. Timmins gets scratched (thank god). Robertson scratched a limited ice time. All because they aren’t playing good or giving the team any positive impact. If you’re thinking he doesn’t hold the core 4 accountable because he doesn’t bench them or scratch them then you’re just completely nuts kid. You don’t bench players that make $11M per season - Shanahan would have him fired instantly if he did that. That’s not how you run a business.

How can you sit there and say Keefe has the roster he wants when he’s come out and said that he doesn’t? He literally said he doesn’t know who he can trust in key moments - that’s a message to Treliving to go out and acquire guys he can trust. Saying he has the roster he wants is just pure ignorance when the coach is saying the exact opposite.

Maybe they just lose in playoffs because the roster isn’t good enough. The defence has never been good enough to shut down guys in the playoffs because the way it was constructed was to defend by playing offence. That’s Shanahan’s fault. Jim Montgomery got out coached by Florida last playoffs. So did Rod Brind’Amour.. I don’t see their fan bases calling for them to be fired. Hell Carolina couldn’t score against Florida either. But again, no one calls for their jobs. Only Keefe’s cause he’s in Toronto and Leafs fans are probably the most emotional fans in sports and they don’t know how to control them. They overreact way too quick.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 21 at 8:23 a.m.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 20 at 10:29 p.m.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>swinny</b></div><div>He absolutely is at this point.

How many years of blown 3rd period leads can one endure? Last season Dubas threw the kitchen sink at this, and the results still lacked.

He cannot think inside the game (completely out coached in the playoffs). Player deployment is questionable at times; player usage even worse, and runs the snot out of the big 4 during an 82 games sched so they are conveniently burnt out when it matters.

His support staff is nothing short of phenomenal. I am a big Maholtra fan as a coach. Van Ryn came in with a very proven track record. So did Chynoweth. Then you get to Guy Boucher and former Jack Adams winner MacLean.

Great coaches find ways to win. Keefe cannot do this. Blame injuries, blame lack luster signings, but this boils down to a head coach that has an inability to get the most out of this roster outside the top 4.

I have been beating the fire Keefe drum for a few months.

He is not the guy to get them over the hump.</div></div>

Threw the kitchen sink at him? Their defence was:
Rielly - Schenn
McCabe - Brodie
Giordano - Liljegren

… that’s a #1 guy. Maybe a #3/4 in Brodie last year (he’s regressed a ALOT this year), a #5 guy, and 3 #6 guys… how the hell does anyone expect a coach to win with a defence like that? Look at all the rosters of cup winning teams. Their defence is MUCH better than that. Fix the roster first. Give him someone he can rely on. Then if the same issues are there you can fire him.

The coach is the scapegoat too often. If the team gets saves at an actual NHL rate, we’re not even talking about this right not. The defence and goaltending is just awful. It’s AHL calibre.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 20 at 10:21 p.m.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>RipNasty</b></div><div>Sure the players have to be held accountable but the same issues continue to be the same issues and is often masked by the core doing what they can do. Keefe has been downright bad at handling young players. He has his favorites and it costs them. He's been out coached every playoff round he's ever been in in the NHL.

Treliving also deserves a tonne of heat. He's done very little to help this team. Klingberg and Reaves? Has Bertuzzi been a 5 million dollar player? Domi costs the team as much as he helps, often it's a net loss with him. Kampf at 2+ million?

Some things are out of everyone's control. Woll got hurt, I never believed that Samsonov would be as good as he was last year, but this has been far worse than I had feared.

However, the teams system isn't working, teams have figured Keefe out and he hasn't changed a thing. The defence is not good but Gio and Brodie get so much playing time while others have out performed them. Liljegren is just now getting some bigger minutes and responsibilities and while he still needs to improve, he's been good. Should have had these minutes from the start of the season. Timmins has been really good when he plays, sure he is risky at times but he wins his minutes and is a net benefit. Robertson has been good this year as well but Keefe just doesn't change anything. He's openly admitted he doesn't trust the new players. He's not a good coach. At least not what this team need.

I wish Cooper was available.</div></div>

It’s hilarious how oblivious Leafs fans are 😂

EVERY coach has their favourites. If you play to their style, they give you more ice time. When you don’t, you don’t get ice time. It’s pretty simple. Keefe is an offensive minded coach who likes to push the play. The young players make too many mistakes defensively and that’s why they’re benched more. Robertson is atrocious defensively, like I think he’s the worst player in the league at hitting the red line and getting the puck deep. He just can’t do it. There’s way too much junior in his game still and he hasn’t adapted to the NHL well at all, don’t be fooled by his point totals. Liljegren gets out worked and beat in the corners in his own end all the time. Turns the puck over and causes scoring chances far too often. &amp; Knies is missing defensive assignments what seems like every game for the last 3 weeks. So yeah, those types of plays deserve to be benched - it’s call accountability. When the roster is built up so much with 4 players you HAVE to play them more. That’s what they’re paid for. If he scratches or benches a $11M player it’s just not good use of the roster - that would call for a firing. From a business perspective, you have to get the most out of every penny spent and $11M needs to be on the ice a lot.

The Treliving heat is actually the funniest part of the comment - what was he supposed to do or what is he supposed to do now? Everyone in hockey called the Bertuzzi a great signing when it happened, and on a 1 year deal there was no risk to it. The numbers aren’t there but his play has still been great. Klingberg was brought in because he was something that the organization didn’t have, which is a right handed shooter from the point on the PP which changes the look. While it didn’t work out, only being a 1 year deal it was with very little risk. &amp; Klingberg wasn’t even his first choice. He wanted Dumba. But Dumba wanted more money and term at the start of free agency and Treliving didn’t wanna wait. You can’t blame a guy for a player that doesn’t want to come to the team. Reaves was mainly brought in as a locker room guy cause there’s issues within the room. His contract is easily buriable in the minors so as much as the signing isn’t great, it’s an easy out. Domi has been exactly what he has always been. It’s not Treliving’s fault the fans expect more from a guy when he’s not that guy. Both him and Bertuzzi were brought in because of their playoff performances so it’s not even fair to judge them yet. &amp; Kampf at $2.4M isn’t bad when you look at the cap percentage and the cap rising significantly over the term of his deal, the worst part of that contract is the MNTC but Kampf being a free agent had the leverage.

The goaltending has just been awful. There wasn’t anything available last summer and the goalie market via trade is insanely high right now. Jones and Samsonov have been garbage. Woll is a fragile piece of glass. If the team can’t get saves, you can’t blame the coach for a loss. Like the Leafs just dominated Vancouver for most of the game and scored 4 goals on 47 shots, that SHOULD be enough to win a game in the NHL. But Jones gave up 6 goals on 21 shots. That not even AHL level goaltending - they’re NHL goalies, stop the puck.

You say the team’s system isn’t working but it’s the same system Keefe has always had and it’s worked in the past. A close to .700 winning percentage is pretty elite for a coach.

The problem is the roster. Timmins isn’t that good, he’s so high risk that his reward isn’t worth the play. Liljegren needs to beef up and be able to take a hit to make a play. Brodie needs to stop jumping to make plays, it’s almost like he’s scared and just moves too quick and it makes him slow. Giordano is nothing more than a shot blocker. &amp; Rielly has been so underrated it’s almost criminal - the guy does it all and has no help. The defence core is composed of one #1 guy, and a bunch of #5/6 guys. You cannot win with that in front of AHL level goaltending. Doesn’t matter if you’re Keefe or Jon Cooper. He openly admitted he doesn’t trust anyone because the roster is weak - it was a message to Treliving to get him some depth and defence that he can trust and that will perform better.

Treliving pretty much has his hands tied for the most part. Dubas screwed the team over when he knew he wasn’t coming back and traded away pretty much every significant trade asset the team had. McCabe was never worth the cost, neither was O’Reilly without an extension. And that screwed Treliving. How is he supposed to address the roster if he doesn’t have anything valuable to move? Teams don’t want Robertson. Or Timmins. Or anything Leafs fans offer on here. Every team asks for Toronto’s 1st round picks, and guys like Knies, Minten, Cowan, etc. and as of right now those aren’t available because Treliving is trying to build up the system so that they can bring in guys on ELC’s to address the depth because of the cap situation. Which leads to the biggest problem - Shanahan.

Shanahan made his bet on the core and not only doubled down, but triple down, quadrupled down, and so on.. for 9 years when it hasn’t worked. He was the one telling Dubas and Treliving to commit the big money to the core 4 when they knew other areas needed to be addressed. That’s the definition of insanity. You can not win with 4 guys taking up 53% of your cap - that’s on Shanahan.

The Shanaplan didn’t work. It’s time to fire him and move on. But a coach that has a track record of winning at every level he’s been at and at a high rate isn’t the issue. Stop blaming the coach. Hold the players accountable. They had the same issues under Babcock. It’s not the coach that’s the problem. You move on from Keefe now and he goes somewhere else and wins a cup within 2-4 years. Then people will be saying he shoulda stayed in Toronto.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 18 at 1:10 p.m.
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 18 at 11:57 a.m.
I think the Leafs should have done everything possible to keep him. I don't know if they did, but it does seem he wasn't prepared to take a bottom 6 role.
He's a known leader and the team needed a new voice. They found success while he was there, getting over the 1st round hump and they were in every game against Florida.
I'm not saying you can attribute that directly to him, but I don't think it was entirely coincidence.

Morgan Rielly, asked about the locker room said, the guys feel extremely comfortable together whether they are winning or losing.
Treliving heard the room was quiet, which was part of why he brought in Reaves.
Reaves considered it his personal duty to liven up the room and unite teammates when he was brought in.
Them feeling comfortable with their high salaries and NMC's when the team is losing, is a problem.

O'Reilly went to Nashville and immediately was made an assistant captain and given a prominent role with more ice time than Toronto.
He was their chance to shake up the core without actually moving any of them (not that they had a choice with all the NMC's).
Give O'Reilly a more prominent role, even if that means pushing Matthews or Tavares to the wing, and a letter, and maybe he stays.

O'Reilly holds himself accountable. He doesn't need the media to do it for him.
He isn't just a good player, he's a good teammate. He will help lessen the pressure on others by taking it himself, stand up for them, and give them honest feedback, good or bad.

I don't know if they dropped the ball, it may have simply been O'Reilly's preference to leave, but I don't believe they threw a hard enough pitch either.
I don't think they have enough of that in their group.
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