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Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsSep. 14, 2021 at 1:44 a.m.
Thread: Is Mitch Marner Overpaid
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>BallPuckFellow10</b></div><div>Firstly, I have to say that the way you constructed your response is exemplary. An extremely great read with some very valid points that you backed up nicely with facts. I can't really dispute much you said as it all makes sense, but I have some things I want to discuss.

I have to say that your point regarding bridging Marner makes sense the more I think about it. If his contract expired next summer, he would be paid the exact same amount as he is paid now, So for these 3 years if he was bridged around $7.5-$8M, we would have had some extra cap space to play with. I really didn't think about it that way before you mentioned it.

Secondly, I do disagree with your opinion on the contract putting too much pressure on Marner. Since his draft year, Marner has not been anything other than a stud. He even had an excellent rookie campaign in the OHL almost hitting a ppg while actually doing it in the playoffs for the London Knights, a team that is known for making their young talent have to work and earn that spot in the top six. He did it in his rookies year with players 4 years older than him. His draft year he was the best player on the team when there still was players 3 years older than him. Max Domi who was picked 12th overall in the draft 2 years earlier, was outshone by Marner. We don't even have to talk about the season after his draft year, the numbers a pure comedy, especially in the playoffs. He already had all that pressure built on him when entering the league and still managed to produce an excellent rookie season in the NHL (61 points in 77 games). He survived that kind of pressure, in addition to having Mike Babcock as a coach who at stretches played Mitch on the 4th line. He showed to me at least that he wasn't the kind of player that gets fazed when the pressure builds up. I think he has proven since then that he can handle pressure very well. Somebody has to be the highest paid player on their position, why can't it be Mitch, from a psychological perspective?





While playing him 25 minutes a game in the playoffs is a little bit ridiculous, I don't think Keefe was wrong in riding him and Matthews. They are our two best players without question, and I want them on the ice as much as possible, especially in the playoffs. What I would question is why Nylander is playing more than 7 minutes less, the difference between the two isn't 7 minutes a game different. I didn't view it as Keefe saying ''you wanted that contract, now deliver.'' In my view, it was more of a ''please, bail me out here, I don't know what to do.'' I do like Keefe as a HC, but he couldn't really adapt to JT going down, in a series we were up 3-1 in without him. I don't think Mitch has got too much too soon, I think that is the media narrative around him. From what I have read and seen, he seems like a very humble young man that works extremely hard to improve at a sport he already is one of the greatest currently active at playing it. He never comes off as rude, selfish, childish, spoiled or ignorant that you would link to someone that has got too much in life too early on.

At one point, I would completely agree with you and not have Mitch Involved with the PK anymore. I think it was a waist of his energy and would negatively impact his offensive impact. But, if you look at his production levels during the regular season, he has been on 90+ point pace the least 3 season with the most recent season having a pace for 30 goals and 100 points. This idea I am about to present doesn't have anything statistically to back it up with. It is more of a hunch that I have. I believe Marner is one of those players that just feeds of being involved in the game at all the time, it almost is as if he doesn't have enough time to sit down and think about what is happening, he can sort of just ''feel'' the game if that makes sense to you at all? His hockey IQ is actually through the roof, he must surely be in the top 10 of players in the league with the highest hockey IQ, something I would think defensemen and players that play in the middle would top. My point is that, by playing him in all situations, which won't make you worse at a team at all due to his high intelligence will only benefit him and you as a team, because he almost always impacts the game in a positive way, by making the right play or the impossible play that us casuals could only dream of executing. I wonder if the Leafs ever would give Marner and Kerfoot a chance to play together shorthanded. Their IQ's are of the chart's. I think they could expose some power plays that aren't sharp. Not suggesting that they would lead the league in shorthanded points, but it would also not surprise me.
</div></div>

I will start with saying that there's ALWAYS more pressure playing hockey in a Canadian city. Now add in the negotiations Marner had and the eventual contract signed, yeah the pressure is ratched up because it's suddenly "put up or shut up" time.

Back during contract negotiations, I was saying similar things to what <a href="/users/leaflet" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@leaflet</a> said in the above post. <a href="/users/Aadoyle" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@Aadoyle</a>'s post also very nicely sums up why players get paid more playing for Canadian teams despite taking home less money than players south of the border.

The pandemic really messed things up for Dubas because as others have pointed out, had the cap risen Marner's contract (or Nylander's/Matthews') wouldn't be quite the issue they seem to be ATM.

Lastly, I want to make a point about this site but particularly the people posting here on a daily basis. When Marner's contract was being negotiated, every single non Leafs fan was coming into Leafs discussion threads and saying how Marner deserves the rumored 10 million but as soon as he got that contract, man... the turncoats came rushing out to point out how overpaid Marner is.

There's quite a few hypocrites on this site and they all have something in common. Can you figure out what that is?
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsSep. 13, 2021 at 9:22 p.m.
Thread: Is Mitch Marner Overpaid
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>leaflet</b></div><div>Good effort putting all this argument together.

I don't dispute that Marner is the highly talented winger you describe. Most people don't. But I still think it's a bad signing. And I'm not saying this with the benefit of hindsight: I was saying the exact same thing before the contract was signed and the pandemic started! Many reasons.

- If the AAV price was about 11M during negotiations, higher than any winger in the league, management had to bridge. That's what most Canadian GMs did, rightly so. The reasoning is that even after the bridge and without COVID, the AAV for wingers would have increased to the level his agent was asking for, at best. So, you gain cap space for 3-4 years.

- Psychologically, it's not desirable for a young player not named McDavid to become the highest paid player at his position (nobody is at McDavid's level). Too much pressure. I said that before: exceeding expectations always feels better, more motivating. Maybe the blame is other people's greed. But if Marner had a 9M AAV right now, nobody would have a negative thing to say about him. It would feel great for him.

The last playoffs are a good example. Keefe played him 25 minutes a game. It's like he was saying: you wanted that contract, now deliver. The reality is, however, this level of ice time is well beyond optimal.

In short: you can spoil the development of young players by raising the bar too high, too soon. Mitch throwing the puck in the stands is not him failing the fans. It's the people around him who failed him in his development, from his agent to the GM.

- You mentioned the PK several times. It's great. I like defensively reliable players, too. But to be frank, Marner should not play on the PK in the first place. Other players can do it, and fill that role with the same efficiency, if not more. Being a reliable defender at even strength is more than sufficient for Marner. Unless you change the entire system of the team, and become like Boston. But the Leafs aren't Boston. With regards to special teams, his focus should be the PP.

- Rantanen, Kucherov are comparables. Rantanen doesn't fill the same defensive role, but he has physicality and a better goal scoring touch. That's worth something. Kucherov is at another level entirely: his play under pressure and intense coverage is unparalleled. The way Tampa supported his development was exemplary. They went step by step, and of course, he was bridged. In fact, both players are better managed, because they have realistic expectations. And their cap hit is about just right.

With all that said, I like your attitude. I'm tired of cap discussions anyway, especially after the fact, since we can't change that anymore. So it may be better to see the glass half full.</div></div>

Firstly, I have to say that the way you constructed your response is exemplary. An extremely great read with some very valid points that you backed up nicely with facts. I can't really dispute much you said as it all makes sense, but I have some things I want to discuss.

I have to say that your point regarding bridging Marner makes sense the more I think about it. If his contract expired next summer, he would be paid the exact same amount as he is paid now, So for these 3 years if he was bridged around $7.5-$8M, we would have had some extra cap space to play with. I really didn't think about it that way before you mentioned it.

Secondly, I do disagree with your opinion on the contract putting too much pressure on Marner. Since his draft year, Marner has not been anything other than a stud. He even had an excellent rookie campaign in the OHL almost hitting a ppg while actually doing it in the playoffs for the London Knights, a team that is known for making their young talent have to work and earn that spot in the top six. He did it in his rookies year with players 4 years older than him. His draft year he was the best player on the team when there still was players 3 years older than him. Max Domi who was picked 12th overall in the draft 2 years earlier, was outshone by Marner. We don't even have to talk about the season after his draft year, the numbers a pure comedy, especially in the playoffs. He already had all that pressure built on him when entering the league and still managed to produce an excellent rookie season in the NHL (61 points in 77 games). He survived that kind of pressure, in addition to having Mike Babcock as a coach who at stretches played Mitch on the 4th line. He showed to me at least that he wasn't the kind of player that gets fazed when the pressure builds up. I think he has proven since then that he can handle pressure very well. Somebody has to be the highest paid player on their position, why can't it be Mitch, from a psychological perspective?

While playing him 25 minutes a game in the playoffs is a little bit ridiculous, I don't think Keefe was wrong in riding him and Matthews. They are our two best players without question, and I want them on the ice as much as possible, especially in the playoffs. What I would question is why Nylander is playing more than 7 minutes less, the difference between the two isn't 7 minutes a game different. I didn't view it as Keefe saying ''you wanted that contract, now deliver.'' In my view, it was more of a ''please, bail me out here, I don't know what to do.'' I do like Keefe as a HC, but he couldn't really adapt to JT going down, in a series we were up 3-1 in without him. I don't think Mitch has got too much too soon, I think that is the media narrative around him. From what I have read and seen, he seems like a very humble young man that works extremely hard to improve at a sport he already is one of the greatest currently active at playing it. He never comes off as rude, selfish, childish, spoiled or ignorant that you would link to someone that has got too much in life too early on.

At one point, I would completely agree with you and not have Mitch Involved with the PK anymore. I think it was a waist of his energy and would negatively impact his offensive impact. But, if you look at his production levels during the regular season, he has been on 90+ point pace the least 3 season with the most recent season having a pace for 30 goals and 100 points. This idea I am about to present doesn't have anything statistically to back it up with. It is more of a hunch that I have. I believe Marner is one of those players that just feeds of being involved in the game at all the time, it almost is as if he doesn't have enough time to sit down and think about what is happening, he can sort of just ''feel'' the game if that makes sense to you at all? His hockey IQ is actually through the roof, he must surely be in the top 10 of players in the league with the highest hockey IQ, something I would think defensemen and players that play in the middle would top. My point is that, by playing him in all situations, which won't make you worse at a team at all due to his high intelligence will only benefit him and you as a team, because he almost always impacts the game in a positive way, by making the right play or the impossible play that us casuals could only dream of executing. I wonder if the Leafs ever would give Marner and Kerfoot a chance to play together shorthanded. Their IQ's are of the chart's. I think they could expose some power plays that aren't sharp. Not suggesting that they would lead the league in shorthanded points, but it would also not surprise me.

I love Mikko Rantanen as a player and he has some skills that Marner don't. Like you said, his physicality and goal scoring touch should definitely be something that you take into consideration. However, respectfully, I don't think Marner and Rantanen are on the same level. Both of them play with players generally considered in the top five in the league so they both play with phenomenal players and on phenomenal teams. Rantanen will probably score 40 goals at some point in his career, and Marner will likely have a season with 30. However, I doubt Rantanen will ever be able to develop into a player that can dominate every single situation the game throws at him, just like Marner can. I think that people overlook the defensive side of the game too much. I am not saying that you are one of those people, but defense is 50% of the game, so I think it should be worth mentioning when a player is among the best at both facets of the game.

With respect to Marner, he is not on Nikita Kucherov's level. I like that you pointed out the way that they developed him. Kucherov as a player coming from a complete different hockey culture, continent was someone that Tampa likely knew was going to be fragile if he was put under too much pressure too soon. Frankly, the same thing applies to Rantanen that also played I the AHL before making the jump. I don't think Marner needed that, he was from the local area he was going to play in, he knew all about the pressure and the history of the team. I could honestly not think of another player that could have handled everything as well as he has done. Obviously Matthews helps to shoulder the burden as well, and he is just special as pressure doesn't affect him as well either.

At the end of the day, I think Marner will prove all his critiques wrong. I am not saying that the Leafs will win a cup, but he will at some point have a crazy playoff run which will make all of this forgotten. He is just too good of a player not too, Same applies to AM34.
Forum: NHL SigningsJul. 8, 2021 at 4:30 p.m.
Thread: Toronto Maple Leafs signed Travis Dermott (2 Years / $1,500,000 AAV)
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Alfie11</b></div><div>Everybody says he can, but then he sucks when they try it, even when he’s sheltered, so he doesn’t do it anymore. If he actually could play the right side at a decent level then Toronto wouldn’t have had such a major issue with their right side for so many years. He’s a 3rd pair LD who isn’t better than Rielly, Muzzin, or Sandin, and isn’t gonna be taken by Seattle without incentive because of Kerfoot’s availability and the general lack of centres in the expansions draft (not to mention that Kerfoot’s just a better player and is fairly paid). And if they go 7-3-1 he’s not getting selected over Holl, because there are so many 3LD Seattle could select and not nearly as many potential 2RDs (Shatty, Miller, end of list pretty much, Graves/Dunn/Skjei/Gio are some likely LD selections that are all better than Dermott). This is why this signing makes no sense tbh, he’s gonna be their #7 guy, or struggling on his off side as the #6. Unless he does get dealt, but ultimately how much value does a 3LD really have when guys like Kylington, Mete, and Niku go on waivers every year for less money, no acquisition cost, and similar upside.</div></div>

You summed it up. They could have signed Ben Hutton as #7, probably at league minimum.
Forum: NHL SigningsJul. 8, 2021 at 3:13 p.m.
Thread: Toronto Maple Leafs signed Travis Dermott (2 Years / $1,500,000 AAV)
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>toque</b></div><div>Can't he play his off-side too?</div></div>
Everybody says he can, but then he sucks when they try it, even when he’s sheltered, so he doesn’t do it anymore. If he actually could play the right side at a decent level then Toronto wouldn’t have had such a major issue with their right side for so many years. He’s a 3rd pair LD who isn’t better than Rielly, Muzzin, or Sandin, and isn’t gonna be taken by Seattle without incentive because of Kerfoot’s availability and the general lack of centres in the expansions draft (not to mention that Kerfoot’s just a better player and is fairly paid). And if they go 7-3-1 he’s not getting selected over Holl, because there are so many 3LD Seattle could select and not nearly as many potential 2RDs (Shatty, Miller, end of list pretty much, Graves/Dunn/Skjei/Gio are some likely LD selections that are all better than Dermott). This is why this signing makes no sense tbh, he’s gonna be their #7 guy, or struggling on his off side as the #6. Unless he does get dealt, but ultimately how much value does a 3LD really have when guys like Kylington, Mete, and Niku go on waivers every year for less money, no acquisition cost, and similar upside.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsJun. 3, 2021 at 10:58 a.m.
Thread: Dubas confirms Matthews and Marner aren’t going anywhere
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>good

I want this core to win. Not another core where Marner or Nylander were moved but this core with JT, Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. To much change means chemistry goes out the window and team will spend to much time adjusting

next year we will most likely see Hallander, Robertson and Liligren graduate. Youth often brings more motivation and who knows Robertson may win the Calder (or is he not illegible anymore I don't know)

Spezza, Simmons and potentially thorton are coming back. Leadership and grit

Freddie could come back. Experienced goalie who we know when healthy is amazing

Hyman could come back. Bleeds blue and white for life</div></div>

I'll preface this by saying as an Oilers' fan, I'm all Dubas all the way. I want the Leafs to succeed because I think they're on the frontier of where this sport should be headed. Keeping the big four together and continuing to address depth is the only meaningful way forward.

I suspect Hallander starts at minimum with the Marlies, especially if Dubas wants to keep him as a pivot as opposed to a LW. His NHLe is only 82GP - 13.325G - 11.275 - 24.600P which misses the cutoff for third-line production (I use 0.33P/GP as a staunch cutoff, and even then I prefer the number being closer to 0.4). Dubas will like the strength that Hallander-Amirov bring to the Marlies. Robertson's NHLe is poised to get close to the half-point-per-game mark and no doubt I expect him to be on the roster as either the #2 or #3LW.

I suspect Liljegren is going to be traded, but I'm not sure what for. Bogosian played <em>really</em> well this year and I can't help but think he'll be one of those value contracts for the Leafs a la Spezza that continues to sign cheap until they've won a cup. I find it damning that he still hasn't been an NHL presence after his D+4 year and suspect the move will be to address the #3C.

Hyman's back without question and a hometown discount at around $4M with lots of term wouldn't surprise me.

I don't know if you bring Simmonds or Thornton back. They didn't accomplish much and weren't as effective as I imagine Dubas had hoped. There has to be better players out there to replace them with. I like Barclay Goodrow on a one-year deal and I think he'd like the fit too. A Goodrow - Brooks - Spezza 4th line is a very good 4th line. Freddie will probably be too cost-prohibitive for the Leafs. I suspect they're in the market for a $2M/2y goaltender to tandem with Campbell. I wonder if an Engvall-Khudobin swap with some retention makes sense for the Leafs. It very much works for the Stars, given their current three-headed goaltending monster.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMay 21, 2021 at 8:55 a.m.
Thread: Tavares
I have to start by saying I agree with Zach the person who posted this forum. At the end of the day hockey is a game and we all have to go home to our loved ones once the game is over.
This incident was scary enough to watch for fans it had to be even harder for JT's family, my thoughts are with them.
I hope he makes a full recovery as quick as possible and can get back to playing the game at his highest potential.

<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>leaflet</b></div><div>Agreed. I was completely out of the game after that. Horrible scene.

I don't think I'll watch the rest of the series. This sport is not worth it if people's lives are at stake. And the score means absolutely nothing from now on, in any case. Cancel the series. See you all next year.</div></div>

The injury happened so early in the game I would have understood if the NHL decided to postpone the rest of the game.
It was difficult to watch as a spectator but whether you are a player on the Habs or especially if you're on TML and that's your captain it had to be hard to play after.

That's why I think the fight was appropriate. To get the minds of the players off the injury and back to the game as much as possible.
Props to Perry for answering the bell for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and props to Foligno for standing up for his teammate.

That said, these players worked hard all year and sacrificed even more than usual with special covid protocols to get a shot at winning the Stanley Cup.
Perhaps you'd have more of an argument to cancel the series if Perry had malicious intent or if it was fatal but this was a pure accident.
Even logistically it wouldn't make sense. Who would the winner of EDM/WPG play?

You're right hockey is a risky sport. Sharp blades, big hits, fights, hard ice. There have been many nasty injuries. Some career ending unfortunately.
However I think it's worth it and I don't think one accident should determine how safe the sport is.

I hope you don't chalk up this year as an automatic loss of a year and maybe decide to watch some more games.
I know JT being out hurts the Leaf's chances at the cup significantly because he's such a great player but it's not over yet.

I really took my time to write this and re-read it because I hope none if it comes off as rude. I just have a difference in opinion on a few things.
At the end of the day we all wish this didn't happen but it did. So I'll say it again I hope he makes a full recovery as quick as possible and can get back to playing the game at his highest potential.

Take care
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsApr. 21, 2021 at 10:44 p.m.
Thread: Any Andersen haters still here
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>oneX</b></div><div>I was and still am one person who thinks the Leafs need to move on from Andersen. My critism of him is not just about the play-in series vs Columbus but about the last 3 playoff series. He couldn't make the clutch play.

Now just because Campbell and Rittich haven't done that either doesn't mean Andersen suddenly has it.





What about the playoffs before the play-in series? Was he hurt then too?</div></div>

he only had trouble in the final game and to be fair Muzzin was out, Barrie was out, leaving a dcore with Marincin and Ceci in the top 4. If the leafs didnt relax and cause a 3-0 lead to be lost they would have went to R2 by G4. But still despite that was able to put up a 0.936SV and a 1.82GAA in 5 playoff games. He just has trouble in final games in a series thats it, play better the first 4 or 5 games and u wont need to put him in those situations
Forum: Armchair-GMJan. 26, 2021 at 1:23 p.m.