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Expansion Ideas and Division Reshaping

Apr. 21 at 10:09 a.m.
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JT Miller for Hart
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Edited Apr. 21 at 4:38 p.m.
If the league expanded to 36+ teams, what would the 4 new teams be and how would you reshape the divisions, if at all?

I'd add Phoenix(new ownership), Halifax, Houston and Portland. I'd change the divisions to 6 teams
Pacific: San Jose, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary
South-Central: Anaheim, LA, Phoenix, Utah, Vegas, St. Louis
North-Central: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Colorado
Southeast: Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Carolina, Dallas, Houston
Metro: Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Islanders, Rangers
Atlantic: Boston, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Buffalo
Apr. 21 at 10:45 a.m.
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Quoting: AK50
If the league expanded to 36+ teams, what would the 4 new teams be and how would you reshape the divisions, if at all?

I'd add Phoenix(new ownership), Halifax, Houston and Portland. I'd change the divisions to 6 teams
Pacific: San Jose, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary
South-Central: Anaheim, LA, Phoenix, Utah, Vegas, St. Louis
North-Central: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Colorado
Southeast: Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Carolina, Dallas, Houston
Metro: Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Islanders, Rangers
Atlantic: Boston, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Buffalo


Halifax ain't it. Not big enough to support a team. Hamilton gotta be on the list tho
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Apr. 21 at 11:02 a.m.
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Quoting: AK50
If the league expanded to 36+ teams, what would the 4 new teams be and how would you reshape the divisions, if at all?

I'd add Phoenix(new ownership), Halifax, Houston and Portland. I'd change the divisions to 6 teams
Pacific: San Jose, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary
South-Central: Anaheim, LA, Phoenix, Utah, Vegas, St. Louis
North-Central: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Colorado
Southeast: Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Carolina, Dallas, Houston
Metro: Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Islanders, Rangers
Atlantic: Boston, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Buffalo


Won't be Halifax, If Canada gets another team it's in Toronto/Hamilton (GTA) or Quebec City

If I had to add 4 teams, they would be Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta. Then the 4th could be any of Kansas City, Quebec City, Somewhere in the Greater Toronto Area, etc
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Apr. 21 at 12:30 p.m.
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JT Miller for Hart
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Won't be Halifax, If Canada gets another team it's in Toronto/Hamilton (GTA) or Quebec City

If I had to add 4 teams, they would be Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta. Then the 4th could be any of Kansas City, Quebec City, Somewhere in the Greater Toronto Area, etc


Fair, but I just feel that the East Coast deserves a hockey team and Halifax has the most people(around 500,000), so it seems like an obvious choice. Quebec City wouldn't be bad, its just that a team in Atlantic Canada really makes the game more accessible.
Apr. 21 at 1:58 p.m.
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Quoting: AK50
Fair, but I just feel that the East Coast deserves a hockey team and Halifax has the most people(around 500,000), so it seems like an obvious choice. Quebec City wouldn't be bad, its just that a team in Atlantic Canada really makes the game more accessible.


Unfortunately, there's nowhere in Atlantic Canada than can fit an NHL team imo, Halifax is the biggest one but I think they're too small for an NHL team. Maybe AHL would consider Halifax though
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Apr. 22 at 1:11 a.m.
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Edited May 10 at 10:08 a.m.
Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Unfortunately, there's nowhere in Atlantic Canada than can fit an NHL team imo, Halifax is the biggest one but I think they're too small for an NHL team. Maybe AHL would consider Halifax though


Quoting: AK50
Fair, but I just feel that the East Coast deserves a hockey team and Halifax has the most people(around 500,000), so it seems like an obvious choice. Quebec City wouldn't be bad, its just that a team in Atlantic Canada really makes the game more accessible.


Quoting: Rangsey
Halifax ain't it. Not big enough to support a team. Hamilton gotta be on the list tho


The average city in the new 32-team NHL has a US$GDP of over $380 billion and a DMA population of over 4.15 million; average per capita US$GDP of nearly $92,000 per year.

Salt Lake City for reference has GDP of $135 billion, DMA population of 1.25 million and average GDP of $107,644
Phoenix was $362 billion GDP, 4.85 million DMA, and GDP per capita of $74,721.

There are only 3 other non-NHL cities in North America that would raise the average, and in theory create the opportunity to accretively raise league-wide revenues: San Francisco, Houston, and Atlanta. Phoenix is the next closest city to be on par with the league average.

NHL EXPANSION CITY CANDIDATES
PACIFIC
San Francisco, California - huge economy, large and wealthy population (not San Jose, CA); very old/small arena (13,550) would need to be replaced. NFL, MLB, NBA teams.
Portland, Oregon - NHL sized arena ready (18,280); similiar sized market/population as Vancouver and St. Louis. NBA team. Some hockey culture.
San Diego, California - large economy/population (similiar to Minneapolis and Denver); smallish arena (12,920) would need to be replaced. MLB team. AHL success (Gulls).
Others to consider but not top options: Sacramento, Oakland (Former NHL team the Golden Seals were in Oakland, not San Francisco which was a big factor in their failure), Boise.

CENTRAL
Houston, Texas - huge & wealthy population, large economy/corporate base. Has to be Fertitta until 2033 when arena (17,800) lease is up. NFL, MLB, NBA teams. Former successful WHA team (Aeros) here.
Phoenix, Arizona - huge market/population; arena issues are well documented, 5 year clock is ticking. NFL, MLB, NBA teams. Former NHL team located here (Coyotes)/culture.
Austin, Texas - wealthy citizens and fairly large economy (similiar sized market/population as Vancouver and St. Louis); no large arena. No major sport teams.
Kansas City, Missouri - NHL sized arena is ready (17,544) - economy/population is similiar to Nashville & Pittsburgh. NFL, MLB teams. Short-term NHL team located here (Scouts).
San Antonio, Texas - NHL sized arena (16,151) is ready - average sized economy/population compares to Las Vegas/Pittsburgh. NBA team.
Milwaukee, Wisconsin - NHL sized arena (15,178) - population/economy is similiar to Edmonton, Ottawa, Raleigh, and Salt Lake City. NFL, MLB, NBA teams. Strong hockey culture, Blackhawks consider it their territory.
Others to consider but not top options: Oklahoma City, New Orleans, Memphis, Omaha, Tulsa, Albuquerque, Des Moines, and Saskatoon/Regina.

METRO
Baltimore, Maryland - large population/economy (similiar to Vancouver/Charlotte), decent sized arena (14,000) but would need to be replaced. NFL, MLB, NBA teams. Some hockey culture.
Charlotte, North Carolina - large population/economy (similiar to Vancouver), decent sized arena (14,100) but would need to be replaced. NFL, NBA teams.
Cincinatti, Ohio - average population/economy (similiar to Nashville/Pittsburgh), decent sized arena (14,453) but would need to be replaced. NFL, MLB teams. Some hockey culture.
Indianapolis, Indiana - average population/economy (similiar to Nashville/Pittsburgh), small arena (11,651)would need to be replaced. NFL, NBA teams.
Cleveland, Ohio - similiar economy/population to Columbus. NHL sized arena is ready (18,926). Former NHL team located here (Barons). NFL, MLB, NBA teams. Some hockey culture.
Others to consider but not top options: Norfolk, Richmond, Louisville, Birmingham.
Re-alignment option could be to put Nashville Predators in Metro if best expansion candidates dictate realignment.

ATLANTIC
Atlanta, Georgia - huge population and economy, 2 bidding expansion groups/arena proposals. NFL, MLB, NBA teams. 2x former NHL teams located here (Flames/Thrashers).
Orlanda, Florida - similiar economy/population to St. Louis. NHL sized arena is ready (17,353). NBA team.
Hamilton, Ontario - as a stand-alone city is way too small to be an NHL market based on population/economy (smaller than even Quebec). NHL sized arena (17,383) and extremely strong hockey culture in place. As a "2nd Greater Toronto Area" team however, Hamilton ranks on this list. IMO, if the Buffalo Sabres were ever to relocate they would be allowed to move here; otherwise I think both the Maple Leafs and the Sabres block any additional teams in the southern Golden Horseshoe.
Quebec City, Quebec - much too small of an economy/population for the modern NHL (similiar to Winnipeg, Manitoba). NHL sized-arena is ready (18,259) and former NHL teams (Bulldogs/Nordiques) were located here. Extremely strong hockey culture.
Others to consider but not top options: Jacksonville, Hartford, Providence, Grand Rapids.
Atlanta could be a Metro or Atlantic team to place; depending upon other expansion options to optimize geographical/potential rivalry fit.

The four strongest cities to grow the leagues revenues would be: San Francisco, Houston, Atlanta, and Phoenix and it's not particularly close. San Diego and Baltimore come in 5th/6th.

I can see the concern over San Francisco with neighboring San Jose but that is about the same distance as Toronto to Buffalo but in this case it would be like having Toronto and Vancouver an hour apart and everyone in both cities made twice their current income.

Add San Francisco to the Pacific, Arizona/Houston to the Central; move Nashville to the Metro, and add Atlanta to the Atlantic

PACIFIC
Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
Seattle
San Francisco
San Jose
Los Angeles
Anaheim
Vegas

CENTRAL
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Chicago
St. Louis
Colorado
Utah
Dallas
Houston
Arizona

METRO
New York R
New York I
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Washington
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Carolina
Nashville

ATLANTIC
Montreal
Ottawa
Toronto
Detroit
Buffalo
Boston
Atlanta
Tampa Bay
Florida

Or an alternative Metro/Atlantic alignment could be:
SOUTHEAST....................NORTHEAST
Philadelphia...................New York R
Washington....................New York I
Pittsburgh.......................New Jersey
Columbus.......................Boston
Carolina..........................Buffalo
Nashville.........................Detroit
Atlanta............................Toronto
Tampa Bay.....................Ottawa
Florida.............................Montreal

This format could have a positive impact on TV ratings/value by having the Northeast teams competing more regularly such as Toronto/Montreal vs the New York area teams, but the alternative is re-creating the not-so-successful "Southleast" division/demographic.
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Apr. 22 at 1:32 a.m.
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Edited Apr. 22 at 2:36 p.m.
Quoting: AK50
Fair, but I just feel that the East Coast deserves a hockey team and Halifax has the most people(around 500,000), so it seems like an obvious choice. Quebec City wouldn't be bad, its just that a team in Atlantic Canada really makes the game more accessible.


To put the NHL economics into perspective, Winnipeg fans must pay nearly 6x the amount per person to support the team compared to "average NHL cities" who have a large corporate base for sponsorships and larger populations of fans to purchase tickets. Toronto has such a large economy/population that they are below average in "support ratio" (0.6x), while Montreal is right around average at 1.2x, Vancouver is slightly above average at 1.7x, and then Calgary 2.5x, Edmonton 3.1x, and Ottawa 3.2x. Buffalo is the lowest ranked American city at 4.6x with Salt Lake City coming in next at 2.9x

These statistics are born out by the teams struggles at the gate this year with fans complaining about ticket prices. They have to subsidize the team because otherwise it wouldn't exist; but now they "forgot" that and are feeling the pinch in the pocketbook (understandably so). However, you cannot award a team to a small city and say "but they have a great hockey culture/fandom/etc and will support the team even without corporations" and then turn around and use that as an excuse as to why they are struggling financially.

Quebec City is very similiar in that 6x ratio.

Hallifax would be double that at 11.6x and with a much lower per capita GDP compared to Quebec and even Winnipeg it would only be destined for failure as an NHL market.
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Apr. 22 at 2:10 a.m.
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Won't be Halifax, If Canada gets another team it's in Toronto/Hamilton (GTA) or Quebec City

If I had to add 4 teams, they would be Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta. Then the 4th could be any of Kansas City, Quebec City, Somewhere in the Greater Toronto Area, etc


Fill the map give Saskatchewan a team

Hamilton also getting a team wouldn't mind that either
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Apr. 22 at 3:06 a.m.
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Quoting: AK50
If the league expanded to 36+ teams, what would the 4 new teams be and how would you reshape the divisions, if at all?

I'd add Phoenix(new ownership), Halifax, Houston and Portland. I'd change the divisions to 6 teams
Pacific: San Jose, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary
South-Central: Anaheim, LA, Phoenix, Utah, Vegas, St. Louis
North-Central: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Colorado
Southeast: Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Carolina, Dallas, Houston
Metro: Pittsburgh, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Islanders, Rangers
Atlantic: Boston, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Buffalo


With these teams/divisions wouldn’t it make more sense for Colorado to be in the South-Central and St. Louis to be in the North-Central? Colorado is much closer to Utah/Vegas/Phoenix/California and St. Louis is much closer to Chicago/Detroit/Columbus
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May 6 at 11:53 a.m.
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The new teams will likely be in Atlanta, Houston, Arizona and Cleveland.

8 floating divisions, no conferences.

Northwest Division - Calgary, Edmonton, Seattle, Vancouver

Pacific Division - Anaheim, Los Angeles, San Jose, Vegas

Midwest - Chicago, Colorado, Minnesota, Utah, Winnipeg

Southwest - Arizona, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, St. Louis

Northeast - Boston, Buffalo, Montreal, Ottawa

Atlantic - New Jersey, NY Islanders, NY Rangers, Philadelphia

Central - Cleveland, Columbus, Detroit, Toronto, Pittsburgh

Southeast - Atlanta, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay, Washington

First in the division gets a first round bye. Two plays Three in a best of five, winner plays One in a best of seven.

In the third round, the 8 teams get reseeded based on their record minus divisional games. 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6, 4 vs 5. The third, fourth and Final round are best of seven.

* 4 teams that take the league to 40 teams go to Baltimore, Hartford, Portland and San Francisco.
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May 22 at 12:32 p.m.
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If the NHL expands to 36-40 teams, 3 of them need to be Hamilton, Quebec City, and Saskatchewan. As for the US, I’d like to see the Whalers revived, but I don’t have a strong preference for further US additions.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if the NHL expands to this level, they would need to implement some kind of promotion/relegation system. This is not because I am a soccer fan (quite the opposite actually), but because the talent dilution would destroy the integrity of new NHL records that are set (especially when comparing to the Original 6 era)
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May 22 at 2:00 p.m.
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Quoting: LeafsForLife
If the NHL expands to 36-40 teams, 3 of them need to be Hamilton, Quebec City, and Saskatchewan. As for the US, I’d like to see the Whalers revived, but I don’t have a strong preference for further US additions.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if the NHL expands to this level, they would need to implement some kind of promotion/relegation system. This is not because I am a soccer fan (quite the opposite actually), but because the talent dilution would destroy the integrity of new NHL records that are set (especially when comparing to the Original 6 era)


"need to" based on what criteria? How does that increase revenues for the NHL via Hockey Related Revenue and how does that increase the valuation of all NHL franchises (the equity or FMV)?

These are business decisions and there has to be a business based reason to expand. Why do you think those 3 cities increase the business substantially enough?
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May 22 at 6:14 p.m.
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Quoting: HockeyScotty
"need to" based on what criteria? How does that increase revenues for the NHL via Hockey Related Revenue and how does that increase the valuation of all NHL franchises (the equity or FMV)?

These are business decisions and there has to be a business based reason to expand. Why do you think those 3 cities increase the business substantially enough?


Fair point, I guess I didn’t word that was well as I could have. I chose those 3 cities because they would be my priorities if I was looking at expansion.
Hamilton:
- Has an NHL caliber arena (FirstOntario Centre, formerly Copps Coliseum)
- Has the fans to support an NHL team (as demonstrated by the Leafs outdoor game in Hamilton a few years ago)
- Would provide an alternative to the Leafs in Southern Ontario. As we all know, tickets to Leafs games are ludicrously expensive, the season tickets waiting list is unfathomably long, and corporate suits occupy most of Scotiabank Arena. In fact, there was a more lively pro-Leafs atmosphere in Buffalo than there was in Toronto.
Quebec City:
- Has an NHL-caliber arena (I believe it’s called the Videotron Centre and AHL Laval is playing in it right now)
- Has the fans to support an NHL team (was considered for expansion same year as Vegas)
- Instant marketing opportunities: Not only would they have the built in rivalry with Montreal, but the nostalgia of reviving the Nordiques would only help as well
Saskatchewan:
- Instant trio of geographic rivals: Edmonton, Calgary, and Winnipeg
- As alluded to above, Canadian hockey fans are very passionate about hockey, and instead of having to travel long distances to Edmonton, Calgary, or Winnipeg, Saskatchewan hockey fans could unite behind the team
- In addition, that would leave Canadian teams with 5 in the East and 5 in the West, which is well balanced and would, as @aadoyle said, “fill the map”
Overall:
- NHL would be approximately 1/4 Canadian teams (9 teams would work in 33-39 total, and 10 would work 37-43 total)
- This would be helpful for if the NHL ever wants to make another all-Canadian division for the marketing opportunities, or is forced to be another cross-border lockdown
- I hope this wasn’t too long to read and I’d be interested in any feedback you have in response
May 23 at 12:36 a.m.
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Quoting: LeafsForLife
Fair point, I guess I didn’t word that was well as I could have. I chose those 3 cities because they would be my priorities if I was looking at expansion.
Hamilton:
- Has an NHL caliber arena (FirstOntario Centre, formerly Copps Coliseum)
- Has the fans to support an NHL team (as demonstrated by the Leafs outdoor game in Hamilton a few years ago)
- Would provide an alternative to the Leafs in Southern Ontario. As we all know, tickets to Leafs games are ludicrously expensive, the season tickets waiting list is unfathomably long, and corporate suits occupy most of Scotiabank Arena. In fact, there was a more lively pro-Leafs atmosphere in Buffalo than there was in Toronto.
Quebec City:
- Has an NHL-caliber arena (I believe it’s called the Videotron Centre and AHL Laval is playing in it right now)
- Has the fans to support an NHL team (was considered for expansion same year as Vegas)
- Instant marketing opportunities: Not only would they have the built in rivalry with Montreal, but the nostalgia of reviving the Nordiques would only help as well
Saskatchewan:
- Instant trio of geographic rivals: Edmonton, Calgary, and Winnipeg
- As alluded to above, Canadian hockey fans are very passionate about hockey, and instead of having to travel long distances to Edmonton, Calgary, or Winnipeg, Saskatchewan hockey fans could unite behind the team
- In addition, that would leave Canadian teams with 5 in the East and 5 in the West, which is well balanced and would, as aadoyle said, “fill the map”
Overall:
- NHL would be approximately 1/4 Canadian teams (9 teams would work in 33-39 total, and 10 would work 37-43 total)
- This would be helpful for if the NHL ever wants to make another all-Canadian division for the marketing opportunities, or is forced to be another cross-border lockdown
- I hope this wasn’t too long to read and I’d be interested in any feedback you have in response


I appreciate you expanding on your ideas. Not everyone on here is Canadien so the things you take for granted in Toronto aren't obvious to all of us (ticket prices to games for example).

Hamilton is intriguing because of being in the Greater Toronto Area, and certainly would have a full arena; but it would technically "dilute" the media market and not necessarily increase ratings and media rights to the league. Would Maple Leafs see diminished demand in season tickets, corporate sponsorships, media rights, etc?

Would the Buffalo Sabres?

Each NHL team has to produce a minimum Hockey Related Revenue of $130 million (US), otherwise they are not meeting the HRR target for the cap floor and losing money.
However, the average revenue per team in 2023 was $201,000,000.

For 17,383 seats per game in Hamilton x 41 home games that is $282 per seat per game; or $386 Canadien or $11,563 (US); $15,841 (Canadien) per seat per season.

Certainly Corporate sponsorships and luxury boxes help push the average to make the cheap seats more affordable while still bringing in the revenue.

Buffalo is, and has been for quite a long time, near the bottom of the NHL revenue scale. A "competitor" moving into the area that drives much of their revenue would be met with fierce resistance from them in the NHL governor's meetings; so the "political" support amongst the NHL owners would already be poor.

IMO, the only way Hamilton gets a team is if it is the Buffalo Sabres relocating.

Those economics are also the exact reason why Quebec and even moreso Saskatchewan would not be considered for expansion. The financial struggles in Winnipeg have already put the NHL on notice that small market teams are really vulnerable no matter how passionate their fanbase/community is for hockey. If the "burden" of supporting the team economically comes from the general population within that city then it could be subject to downturns that can never be recovered. If there is a really big corporate base and enough population to overcome ebbs and flows in the "diehard" fanbase then it is more sustainable. If Quebec doubled in population and economy then maybe they would become an option.
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May 23 at 12:39 p.m.
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Quoting: HockeyScotty
I appreciate you expanding on your ideas. Not everyone on here is Canadien so the things you take for granted in Toronto aren't obvious to all of us (ticket prices to games for example).

Hamilton is intriguing because of being in the Greater Toronto Area, and certainly would have a full arena; but it would technically "dilute" the media market and not necessarily increase ratings and media rights to the league. Would Maple Leafs see diminished demand in season tickets, corporate sponsorships, media rights, etc?

Would the Buffalo Sabres?

Each NHL team has to produce a minimum Hockey Related Revenue of $130 million (US), otherwise they are not meeting the HRR target for the cap floor and losing money.
However, the average revenue per team in 2023 was $201,000,000.

For 17,383 seats per game in Hamilton x 41 home games that is $282 per seat per game; or $386 Canadien or $11,563 (US); $15,841 (Canadien) per seat per season.

Certainly Corporate sponsorships and luxury boxes help push the average to make the cheap seats more affordable while still bringing in the revenue.

Buffalo is, and has been for quite a long time, near the bottom of the NHL revenue scale. A "competitor" moving into the area that drives much of their revenue would be met with fierce resistance from them in the NHL governor's meetings; so the "political" support amongst the NHL owners would already be poor.

IMO, the only way Hamilton gets a team is if it is the Buffalo Sabres relocating.

Those economics are also the exact reason why Quebec and even moreso Saskatchewan would not be considered for expansion. The financial struggles in Winnipeg have already put the NHL on notice that small market teams are really vulnerable no matter how passionate their fanbase/community is for hockey. If the "burden" of supporting the team economically comes from the general population within that city then it could be subject to downturns that can never be recovered. If there is a really big corporate base and enough population to overcome ebbs and flows in the "diehard" fanbase then it is more sustainable. If Quebec doubled in population and economy then maybe they would become an option.


That’s a lot of interesting information, thanks.
For Buffalo and Hamilton, I knew that Buffalo got a lot of business from Southern Ontario, but I thought that was just because the Sabres organization jacked up their prices to a point where hockeys fans (mostly Leafs fans) from Southern Ontario will readily pay said prices as an alternative to games in Toronto, whereas fans are less eager or unable to buy the tickets.
As for the demand and media environment aspects, I don’t think it would be harmful to the Leafs, but for the reasons mentioned above, it has the potential to be harmful for the Sabres. Instead of MLSE having a virtual monopoly, the Hamilton team would provide some competition to the Leafs. Sure it would cause diminished demand for the Leafs, but it would cause MLSE to either lower prices to compete with Hamilton or continually lose business to Hamilton. I think the lowering prices option would be more likely, more beneficial for the fans, corporations, etc, as well as better for the league overall. MLSE would get some of this added revenue back through revenue sharing.
I agree that small market teams haven’t done well, Winnipeg as you mentioned being one example, but I think Arizona is a better example.
 
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