Just like Washington eh?

WSH made changes involving some core guys through the years besides Ovie

And they never had 4 guys making double digits to lul

Caufield's at least 2, if not 3, tiers below Marner... He, just like Marner, is overpaid

and you forgot to mention though with Guenztel, Dubas usually gets duped on Star players, whereas Treliving usually does well with star players...

I think they all will figure it out eventually. Matthews and Willy already have. If both were healthy, that series could have been different. Those two under a coach who can adapt to the playoffs will find another level. Marner I am less sure about but I think he will at some point. Likely not with the Leafs.

If you can get value for Marner trade him. JT is riding out his deal and likely resigning at a major discount and he will be loved again. No one would be complaining about him if he made 4 million less than he does. After next season if he signed for 2 years at 5, it would be a bargain. It's one more year, we knew this could be a possibility. He's not trash.

I don't know about Matthews. Of all the playoff games Matthews has played, we haven't seen him be dominant like other top players often. I'm not sure about Willy either because the goal scoring has been there more consistently than the others, his lack of attention to detail the past few years stands out like a sore thumb.

Shanahan and Treliving talked about playoff goals and how generally they are ugly and messy. These core players have never struck me as players that have the will to get those ugly and messy goals.

I saw it once and it was the 5-4 win to TBL game 4

He put the motors on and just got 2 on Vasi then Kerfoot got the winner

Just never seen it go McDavid, MacKinnon, or Toews/Kane lvl

Like the one guy I saw go to the net and try to get a greasy one was Bertuzzi

How has JT not figured it out he's been in the NHL since 2009

Marner's been here since 2016 and has shown one dominant playoff performance and it was the 2019 series vs. BOS

Look its time for a change enough is enough we cant just keep these guys and continue to run it back 9 years of the Matthews era and 1 series win

2+2 does not = 5

Its time for something new and not just HC, GM or linemates no time to go for the core

I’m fine to agree to disagree but my reasoning is 100% not emotional

Yeah I'm not saying we haven't seen Matthews be dominant, I'm saying there just has not been much consistency in that dominant performance.

Yea thats the one issue with the 4

Its always 2 at a time for a few then it rotates

TBL series highlighted that perfectly never did they all dominate together was always 2 and 2 then in FLA series all disappeared till down 3-0

Shanahan always said Killer Instinct and its something thats come up time and time again. This year Leafs finally played playoff hockey but the big boys did not show up enough due to health and other factors and for some reason struggled to score more than 2

And this is something seen time even last year after they passed R1.

If Marner's willing to waive the door's open for something interesting. If not then 2024-2025 just same mess with new guy behind bench. Could that be enough to help sure but I also think roster construction right at the top is gonna rear its ugly head again. As if you cant move them you cant improve much

With the speculation out there that Carolina has a contract lined up for Brind'Amour, what are the various coaching solutions in your guys eyes?

Like..is Berube the default favorite?
Is Quenneville off limits?
Is Daryl Sutter too much of a dinosaur for this market?
Do any of you have Todd McClenan on your list?

Who have I missed that maybe should be a candidate here?

Edit: Last night someone mentioned what about trading for a coach? Would you do that?

Daryl Sutter is someone apparently Brad never wanted to hire in CGY but the owner loved him and chose him over Tree resulting in Tree leaving when he couldnt fire him. But ironically 2 weeks later Sutter then got fired lul

Doubt he's on the end list based on that.

He usually takes over 1 or 2 games a series...

BOS 2024 (Game 2 in 5 games)
FLO 2023 (0 games in 5 games)
TBL 2023 (Game 4 and Game 6 in 6 games)
TBL 2022 (Game 1 in 7 games)
MTL 2021 (Game 2 in 7 games)
CBJ 2020 (Game 2 and Game 4 in 5 games)
BOS 2019 (Game 3, Game 5 [and if they didn't allow 6 in game 4, Game 4] in 7 games)
BOS 2018 (0 games in 7 games)
WSH 2017 (Game 3 in 6 games)

Usually 1 games, sometimes 0 and sometimes 2...

Is it enough? Depends on standards and what the team's based on...

R.I.P Ron Ellis.

Who? Because their core 4 were Backstrom, Ovie, Carlsson and Holtby. They added Oshie and Kuznetsov I guess. But they didn't break up their core. Despite calls to do so.

Keefe's system is not ugly and messy. His entire offensive strategy, that never changed in the playoffs, is to get the puck in the offensive zone with possession and then cycle around the zone hoping to create space for a shot from the slot. By design it spreads out the forwards making 2 on 1's in the zone or bodies in front, not common. The system sucks for playoffs. Well structured teams (always the best teams in the league and the ones who make the playoffs) can easily just keep you outside and then generally outman you in the danger areas.

Keefe needed to alter things to funnel more pucks and specifically more bodies to the net. Having just 1 guy at a time in the danger areas is all together too easy to defend.

I know the fun thing to do right now is bash the core and blame them for everything wrong in the world. And no one can say they aren't free from blame, but Keefe definitely sucked at coaching in the playoffs and definitely deserved the lions share of blame. He sucks

JT has figured it out. He's had playoff success in the past. He's also getting old and his best years are behind him. How would you feel right now if he made 7 million? Probably not half as bad as you do now.

Look to be honest, discussing this is getting tiring. You have no interest in contemplating anything but your own opinion.

Your emotions prevent reason.

No he hasn't lul

Keeps saying lesson to be learned. No more lessons been here long enough the excuses be getting tiresome. And he'll no to 7m. Guys old slow and past his prime why we wasting cap again go get a younger 2c for that money lul

Again it's not opinion but fact your just not seeing it while everyone else here has

The core hasn't worked. 2 + 2 does not = 5 but you seem to want it to. But no let's bring everyone back and just waste more time till Matthews leaves in FA

One or both of JT and Marner need to go for the betterment of this team

Not good enough. Especially when compared to guys making similar $$$. The old saying about "you win lose with your top dogs" and we've been doing alot of losing with our top dogs.

At least from here on out the coach excuse will not work.

The way I see it is this when looking at the big 3 M's

MacKinnon and McDavid show up more frequently in the playoffs and play with a bigger hunger than Matthews

In the BOS series he shows up game 2 vs. Ullmark and yes I know after he was sick but this is not the first time he has disappeared and we go oh no he hit people and posts and blah blah no no no enough excuses

Regular season I wont care what I see next year its all playoffs from now on. He can hit 70 goals cool but wont matter if in playoffs we bounced fist or second round and he has 2 goals 5 assists

Yeah it's kind of hard to defend Matthews when those other guys have shown up way more often. We can say "but hey Matthews plays in the toughest division in the league etc..etc.." but you know what? The division is not changing and the Leafs are not moving back to the Western Conference.

It's just time to just start demanding more and better from the guys that take a greater percentage of the cap.

These guys, Matthews, Marner and soon Nylander all chose to take the max dollars they could and with that comes greater scrutiny. They all could have chose to take less and in turn have less scrutiny especially during tough times but hey...they chose what they chose.

That's fair... Just pointing out that Matthews is consistent...

Why could Leafs not get the reffing that Florida is getting.
Every game, more penalties to Boston. Overall, it's 9 PP's for Boston. 19 PP's for Florida. (about halfway through 3rd in game 4).

Edit - it's now 20 PPs for Florida.
Edit 2: 21 (that one was deserved).

What would it have mattered our PP sucked

Was 1/21 and in game 3 went 0/5

Were we wanting 2/40 lul