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Serious Question

Created by: brian123
Team: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Jan. 29, 2019
Published: Jan. 29, 2019
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
If I move Nathan Horton and Tyler Ennis to IR to get to the 23 man roster, it shows that the leafs are over the cap by 1.4 million. On the main page the leafs are listed as having 4 million in cap space still available. I think it has something to do with the potential performance bonuses. I thought the leafs had to keep Horton off LTIR this year to avoid carryover, but by not putting Horton on LTIR, they seem to be over the cap. Is this correct? Are the leafs currently not cap compliant as the roster shows below?
Retained Salary Transactions
Buried
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2018
2019
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the STL
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the DAL
2020
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the EDM
Logo of the SJS
2021
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$79,500,000$80,911,111$2,550,000$5,400,000-$1,411,111
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 7
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$894,167$894,167 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$6,250,000$6,250,000
LW, C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$2,850,000$3M)
C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333
RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,100,000$2,100,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,500,000$4,500,000
C
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$10,277,778$10,277,778
RW
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
C
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
LW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$787,500$787,500
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,000,000$4,000,000
LD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,050,000$4,050,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,000,000$3,000,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,500,000$4,500,000
RD
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333
LD/RD
UFA - 2
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$800,000$800,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
RD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$650,000$650,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
UFA - 1

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Jan. 29, 2019 at 9:45 p.m.
#26
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Posts: 254
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Edited Jan. 29, 2019 at 10:01 p.m.
Quoting: Juice
1. My understanding is that Horton is NOT on LTIR. Nor has he ever been at any time this season.

2. My understanding of the CBA is that, if you do place someone on LTIR for the purposes of raising the cap ceiling, you automatically have to pay all performance bonuses on next year's cap

3. #2 above is why #1 above is occurring

4. The only two players that are on pace to earn performance bonuses are Matthews and Marner. Marner tops out at $850k. Matthews has one bonus that tops out at $850k too but also has a secondary bonus that pays him $2m if he finishes top 10 in the NHL for goals or points per game. He's currently on pace to hit that so leafs needs to account for $3.7m on this year's cap to avoid any bonus carryover

5. The 2018-19 performance bonus figure shown on this site displays the max possible number. It's fluctuated with various Marlie call ups...but essentially matthews, marner, ozhiganov, lindholm and moore. But $3.7 is the key number as no one other than Matthews and Marner are anywhere close to hitting their bonus targets

5. As long as the leafs don't use LTIR...they don't HAVE to pay all performance bonuses this year. It's of course ideal to not carry any over to next year's cap when we have 4 major RFA's to re-sign...but if the leafs finish with $2.7m in cap space and didn't use LTIR....they will carryover just the extra $1m

6. In general...players on IR have their AAV count against the cap...but they don't count against the 23 man roster limit...so teams put players on IR so they can call someone up from the minors. Players placed on LTIR (and there's rules in the CBA that dictate the injury must be diagnosed to put the player out for 10 games or 24 days)...the team is allowed to exceed the cap ceiling essentially by the amount of the injurred player's AAV.

The CBA language is confusing...I've been pouring over it for a few years and discussing with a bunch of guys on here a lot to try and connect the dots....and the above is essentially the conclusion we've all come to adopt


Quoting: Jamiepo
To be honest with the leafs cap space I’m not sure we would get any relief so I think performance bonuses could still be paid. (I am not 100% on that though) It’s a moot point because there is no real reason to put him on ltir if you’re not getting relief.

Do you have a good source to look up specific players performance bonus structure? I have always had a hard time tracking them down (not that I don’t trust your numbers).


Ok here is a link to the low down on the LTIR. https://slappersandstats.com/2016/03/01/clarifying-the-long-term-injured-reserve-ltir/

And I am in error Horton would not be on the LTIR right now because if they did they would not get any CAP relief as the article explains since they were-are so far under the cap.
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Jan. 29, 2019 at 9:52 p.m.
#27
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oops computer problems ended up posting the above twice so removed this one
Jan. 29, 2019 at 10:34 p.m.
#28
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Quoting: Gauss
Ok here is a link to the low down on the LTIR. https://slappersandstats.com/2016/03/01/clarifying-the-long-term-injured-reserve-ltir/

And I am in error Horton would not be on the LTIR right now because if they did they would not get any CAP relief as the article explains since they were-are so far under the cap.


Ok....mostly yes to your comment...and a little no...but only because the Leafs are a unique kind of case.

Actually...that whole article pretty much speaks to the genius that is Lou Lamouriello....

But the general premise (and this website used to account for it when making ACGM teams but since moved away from it....remember when placing someone on LTIR you had to choose between 2 options?)....sorry...the general premise is that if you place someone on LTIR, you can exceed the cap ceiling....but only if you don't have enough cap space to replace the player.

So if a guy with a $4m cap hit goes on LTIR...and the team is operating $1m below the cap ceiling....they can exceed the cap by $3m ($1m of the LTIR contract goes to the unused portion of the cap limit and the remaining $3m can go over the limit).

That article gives the great example of how Lou maximized the amount the leafs could exceed the cap by waiting until he called up a reserve that put the leafs within $100k of the cap ceiling...that way almost the entire amount of Horton's $5.3m was available to the leafs. Further...since everyone knew Horton was never playing hockey again...Lou could add significant, permanent pieces (not just an AHL callup) because he didn't have to account for the possibility of Horton returning from injury and coming off LTIR.

Now on to this season...it's absolutely right to say the Leafs haven't put Horton on LTIR because they haven't needed to...putting him there when they had more than $5.3m in available cap space would have had 0 impact on raising their cap ceiling. Even now, it wouldn't make sense to add him unless they filled their roster as close to $79.5m as possible.

The one wrinkle...and the reason I think they won't add him at all under any circumstances...is that in order to get close enough to the cap ceiling to utilize LTIR, you effectively remove any cap space available to pay for performance bonuses...so they all have to roll over to next year's cap.

Here's the one thing I am uncertain of... Let's say the leafs fill out their cap to exactly $75.8m (this is the cap ceiling less their performance bonuses of $3.7m). If they place Horton on LTIR at that exact time, do they gain $1.6m in cap space? ($75.8 + $5.3m = $81.1m...which is $1.6m over the limit).

My understanding is 'no'...which is why I believe using LTIR on Horton forces all performance bonuses onto next year's cap.
Jan. 29, 2019 at 10:50 p.m.
#29
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Joined: Dec. 2018
Posts: 254
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Quoting: Juice
Ok....mostly yes to your comment...and a little no...but only because the Leafs are a unique kind of case.

Actually...that whole article pretty much speaks to the genius that is Lou Lamouriello....

But the general premise (and this website used to account for it when making ACGM teams but since moved away from it....remember when placing someone on LTIR you had to choose between 2 options?)....sorry...the general premise is that if you place someone on LTIR, you can exceed the cap ceiling....but only if you don't have enough cap space to replace the player.

So if a guy with a $4m cap hit goes on LTIR...and the team is operating $1m below the cap ceiling....they can exceed the cap by $3m ($1m of the LTIR contract goes to the unused portion of the cap limit and the remaining $3m can go over the limit).

That article gives the great example of how Lou maximized the amount the leafs could exceed the cap by waiting until he called up a reserve that put the leafs within $100k of the cap ceiling...that way almost the entire amount of Horton's $5.3m was available to the leafs. Further...since everyone knew Horton was never playing hockey again...Lou could add significant, permanent pieces (not just an AHL callup) because he didn't have to account for the possibility of Horton returning from injury and coming off LTIR.

Now on to this season...it's absolutely right to say the Leafs haven't put Horton on LTIR because they haven't needed to...putting him there when they had more than $5.3m in available cap space would have had 0 impact on raising their cap ceiling. Even now, it wouldn't make sense to add him unless they filled their roster as close to $79.5m as possible.

The one wrinkle...and the reason I think they won't add him at all under any circumstances...is that in order to get close enough to the cap ceiling to utilize LTIR, you effectively remove any cap space available to pay for performance bonuses...so they all have to roll over to next year's cap.

Here's the one thing I am uncertain of... Let's say the leafs fill out their cap to exactly $75.8m (this is the cap ceiling less their performance bonuses of $3.7m). If they place Horton on LTIR at that exact time, do they gain $1.6m in cap space? ($75.8 + $5.3m = $81.1m...which is $1.6m over the limit).

My understanding is 'no'...which is why I believe using LTIR on Horton forces all performance bonuses onto next year's cap.


If you are using LTIR cap relief for salaries then yes 100% of the performance bonus will be carryover. If you put a player on LTIR and do not get into the releif you have some cap to apply to bonuses.
Example.
79.5 million cap
76.5 million cap hit when you put a 6 million cap hit player on LTIR.
76.5 million + 6 million = 82.5 million max cap hit with the LTIR relief of 3 million (6 million - the difference between 79.5 cap hit and 76.5 mill cap when put on LTIR.
If the replacement players only need 1 million of cap hit that will make the teams total cap hit 76.5 + 1 = 77.5 million for the year and there is still 2 million that can be applied to performance bonuses.
Jan. 29, 2019 at 10:56 p.m.
#30
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Quoting: Gauss
If you are using LTIR cap relief for salaries then yes 100% of the performance bonus will be carryover. If you put a player on LTIR and do not get into the releif you have some cap to apply to bonuses.
Example.
79.5 million cap
76.5 million cap hit when you put a 6 million cap hit player on LTIR.
76.5 million + 6 million = 82.5 million max cap hit with the LTIR relief of 3 million (6 million - the difference between 79.5 cap hit and 76.5 mill cap when put on LTIR.
If the replacement players only need 1 million of cap hit that will make the teams total cap hit 76.5 + 1 = 77.5 million for the year and there is still 2 million that can be applied to performance bonuses.


ok...but in that scenario why put the player on LTIR at all? You only need $1m in space for your replacement player and it still gives you $2m to pay bonuses...that's the case whether he goes on LTIR or not.
Jan. 29, 2019 at 11:01 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: Juice
ok...but in that scenario why put the player on LTIR at all? You only need $1m in space for your replacement player and it still gives you $2m to pay bonuses...that's the case whether he goes on LTIR or not.


I agree you probably wouldn't
Jan. 29, 2019 at 11:08 p.m.
#32
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Quoting: Juice
ok...but in that scenario why put the player on LTIR at all? You only need $1m in space for your replacement player and it still gives you $2m to pay bonuses...that's the case whether he goes on LTIR or not.


Trades during the year could also effect this. Say at the beginning of the year the team cap was 79 million and you put the 6 mil player on LTIR to generate 5.5 million possible LTIR relief to be able to get that 1 million replacement player (.5 cap + .5 relief). Then later you trade away a 3.5 million player for a 1.5 million player. That will open up 2 mil of cap space so now that 1 million replacement player no longer needs to go into the LTIR relief and there will be some room to apply to bonuses
 
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