I'll disagree. The Leafs didn't have to overpay anyone. It's league comparable. And what options to the players have? Does anyone really think players would forgo 6m NHL contracts and play in the KHL for 2m? I'll agree the Leafs/media set up these players as the next group of superstars, still the Leafs if they had wanted to, didn't have to pay "hometown premium".

If we assume that Babcock was coaching as well as he possibly could previously (which, why wouldn't he?), then it follows that the situation becoming worse will make the team worse, since Mike's impact is already at maximum.

What specific things are the players doing differently where they don't look motivated?



Word of advice: don't type the new words in between the quote tags. Took me a minute to see all the stuff about the players.

Barrie: at 5v5 last year he put up a 1.37 P/60 and a 1.00 P1/60, while this year he's down to a .047 on both, all of which comes from primary assists. That seems like a big dropoff, but keep in mind that so far this year he's played less than a third of his total icetime last year (about 380 mins at 5v5 vs, 1300 total last year). Points are REALLY noisy, so it's reasonably likely he's just dealing with some snakebite right now. Another indicator of snakebite is that his primary assist rate has only fallen from 0.5 to 0.47. Research has shown that primary assists are the most predictive aspect of points. He'll probably regress upwards soon.
Hutch: He hasn't been good this year, but it's a fairly small sample and goalies are voodoo. He also just generally hasn't been good at the NHL level. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Spezza: How has this affected the product on the ice? The overall consensus I've heard is that Spezza's been really good this year, so maybe it's just how Babs motivates Spezza and it's working.
Petan: Again, how has this affected his results on the ice? He hasn't been particularly bad this year IIRC.
Kapanen: How would you adjust his role in order to fix this?

I would not advise hiring a head coach who hasn't coached before. That isn't gonna end well for anybody.

In this scenario, the players are forgoing 4 million the year they sit out. On an 8-year deal, the sit-out has to yield an extra $500 000 AAV to break even in overall earnings. That's not all that much. Meanwhile the Leafs lose a year off their contending window every year they have a player sitting out. It pretty quickly becomes the org's best bet to trade their rights in order to recoup some value, and with leaguewide valuations as high as some of what was rumoured for Matthews/Marner, their new home feasibly gives them what the Leafs did. Most teams are in the market for star players entering their primes. They had more leverage than you'd think, kudos to the agents for figuring that out.

Nah, I think it's just time to part ways. Ledge and Dairy's suggestion about Babcick ending up in Chicago makes alot of sense to me.

I think you're kinda missing the forest for the trees here a little bit. There's a human dynamic outside of the analytics and rational deductions.

A hockey club is made up of 23 players, a coach, assistants, trainers, a GM and his management team, a president who sits at the top of the ivory tower, and a whole lot of other staff. A club spends ALOT of time together...

Now, here's the interesting thing to me. A hockey club isn't a democracy. It's a hierarchy that can be compared to various organizational forms and structures based on how they operationalize, make decisions, determine and enforce accountability measures, which is all largely based on the personalities involved in the club. At certain levels it could resemble a tyranny if say, the head coach (?), acts like a tyrant where he knows best no matter the results and everybody will ask "how high" when he says jump.

I'm not saying Babcock is a tyrant, I just used the above example to further my point. Maybe he's a benevolent dictator? I dunno, it doesn't really matter.

The point I'm trying to make, and everyone probably has experienced this with a boss or family at some point, is that when a group operates within a definative hierarchy, the group dynamic, performace and output, can go to pots real quick depending on how the guy a spot above you on the totem pole goes about things..

I really get the sense that Babcock is the real problem with this club right now. Until I hear even just one player say that the current problems aren't on the coach then I'm sticking with my take. And I haven't heard a player defend Babcock yet, in fact, I've been noticing guys drop some lil digs at Babs lately.

Commodore might not be a coach, but he has sent out some pretty damning texts about his take on who Babcock is. My guess is that more than a few leafs would agree with the guy.. or maybe with Chelios, or with Modano ..

If hindsight is 20/20 the best play woulda been to let Mitch sit the year if he wasn't willing to negotiate in good faith and sign a fair deal. It's not like he's doing much for the team right now anyways..

Honestly, I get the dynamics of how Dubas folded. But I'm still a bit stunned that he was the first to sign his rfa. If anything he should of been the last... that was a pretty big fail.

Anyways, it is what it is now. And they gotta find a way to turn things around, otherwise Babs, Dubas and Marner will all go at some point. And probably in that order.

Agree with you...Babcock has to go. Dubas, sure he gets a lots of blame for the RFA signing. But where was Shanahan and the other high priced Leafs executives. Shanahan was the golden boy when for first couple of years but, now he seems too resting (retired). He's the Telfon Man. Not one bad word about his leadership through this turmoil.
Does Shanahan have the courage to fire the coach he hired? Or the GM? As long as Shanahan is immune to any public criticism, or is not called out by the Leaf owners, maybe nothing good happens.

Leafs had the golden opportunity to be a true contender by having some good very good players being drafted. Then the years seemed to be wasted by bad coaching, bad cap management and now the the malaise that has come over the players.

That's an interesting take on Shanahan, and to be honest I'm not clear on what is role is within the org. But if he's the guy who makes the call on whether or not Babcock stays or goes then we're going to end up hearing from one way or another, cause I think that both the fanbase and the players have had enough of his schtick.

I'm still pretty optimistic about what this roster can do with a 5 yr window as of today. We have alot of good pieces right now, and some solid prospects coming in Sandin, Lilly, and Robertson . Our d needs work with so many heading to ufa but if Sandin/Lilly are ready next season (and I think that's likely) then we're really just looking for a partner for Rielly, cause Dermott and Holl look pretty credible together.

This might sound premature but if we're on the bubble at the trade deadline I hope were selling Muzzin and Barrie for picks and d prospects. At minimum I hope we're not buyers - we're just not there yet from what I've seen and we don't need another Gardiner/ JVR/Bozak walking for nothing.

Re: the cap structure and management. I'm with ya. Im not sure why they didn't play more hardball with these kids. It's like they were worried about hurting their feelings or something if they woulda said.. lol. Nope! You're not worth that! ..

They better hope that the cap makes that jump that everyone's talking about. Cause if it doesn't I think they're going to need to eat some crow and trade out some of their young offensive stars to balance the roster out.

But honestly though, I think it's almost impossible to know what this team is with Babcock as the coach. He should fired first before anything else happens, just so they can get a handle on what they have. Then make an assessment. Then make the trades if needed. Then fire Dubas if needed. Shanny next. And if that doesn't work, burn the whole thing down and sell the franchise. You and I can talk soccer instead, Pal.

You know the two most hated companies in the country....Rogers and Bell aren't selling. Apparently Babcock reports to the Prez Shanahan...not the GM. Soccer sure we can talk about that. But the new look Raptors are doing quite well despite UFA defections and injuries.. Maybe head coach Nick Nurse could do double duty as Raptor and Leaf coach. Even if was just a "game day coach" with the Leafs, his management of the lineup and clock has to be better than Babcock.

Yup. We're on the same page with Babcock. I actually really liked him in his first couple years and thought he did some great things with a really young team. But I don't know, the shine is gone , and I think he's actually holding them back. He's better suited somewhere else. Even if it's just him hunting full time. He'd like that.

Huh. That seems like a weird dynamic if Babcock reports directly to Shanahan. I could see how that dynamic could definitely set up a situation where Babs and Dubas are competing for the vision of what the team should be. The coach should be subordinate to the GM, imo. I think a team is asking for trouble if it's set up otherwise.