Hasn't the only example been Muzzin? Which is not a lesser player but a better player who got less return than you are talking about? You're just going to keep living in dreamland

The kid will be top 4 next season at 20, his potential is top or top defenceman, period. This is just nonsense

You tell me to go away, but won't leave yourself. You're one of those guys who has to have the last word hey?



Montour was moved for Guhle (a prospect with top 4 potential) + 1st. Manson is better than Montour (unless you hate Manson and use every opportunity to downplay his abilities).



Because progression is linear... got it!

Guhle is not half as good a prospect as Sandin, literally everyone outside of you will agree with this. This is just another example of you just saying things are equal that clearly aren't for the sake of winning an argument that is stupid and you lost from the get go.

Guhle + 1st!... which had the potential to be 20th OA. You keep ignoring facts and diminishing known truths to make your point, and when you get called out on it you have a hissy fit. Okay, for the sake of argument, Sandin > Guhle + 1st. What about Liljegren? Is he also worth more than Guhle + 1st? You even admit he's a lesser prospect than Sandin.

You haven't produced any evidence to support your argument that Manson isn't worth a top 4D prospect (I'm not even talking about Liljgren or Sandin specifically, just a top 4D prospect in general). All you have done is say Muzzin is better than Manson and Muzzin didn't return a top 4D prospect, ignoring the fact that Muzzin returned a package that was worth more than a top 4D.

P.S. You can stop responding whenever you want. However, I suspect your cries of "go away" were really meant to say "let me have the last word!!!". Explains a lot why you have ~12,000 post in less than 2 years. It's pretty sad actually.

Well all I can say is you can keep sitting here dreaming of getting Sandin or Liljegren but you are going to be disappointed. Enjoy keeping Manson and not taking the rebuild seriously.

I know that's all you can say because you don't have a legitimate argument. Only feelings.

You haven't understood my argument at all if you think I am "dreaming of getting Sandin or Liljegren". There are many reason why TOR wouldn't/shouldn't trade those guys for Manson, but none of those reasons would include "they're more valuable than Manson".

We will enjoy keeping Manson. He's nowhere near as bad as you seem to think.

And there is the rub. When I say Manson isn't as good as you think he is, that doesn't mean I think he's a bad player, I have said the contrary many times. I just don't think he's a top pair defender, I think he can do an okay job of it if he has a top notch partner. I say that and you hear that I think he's bad and now you are hot under the collar and are pipping off on how good he is. This isn't a black and white scenario. There is a difference between being a top pair defenceman and a middle pair guy and both are good players.

I think that you can get a good package for Manson, likely a 1st and a B prospect for sure. Of course some GM's may pay more, I don't see Dubas going nuts and trading one of our A defence prospects, a 1st and whatever else you think is fair, because he paid less than that for a better player in Muzzin last year. Please don't go off on Manson being better, he isn't and just because Muzzin is better, that doesn't mean Manson sucks, he just doesn't have the same tools that Muzzin has.

But whatever, keep Manson, and don't rebuild, its working out great so far.

Are you dense? I have literally agreed with you on this multiple times. I've admitted that Manson is better suited for a top 4D role. What more do you need me to say?



If we agree that Liljegren has top 4 D upside and you class him as an A prospect, than Manson is worth A prospect + 1st. We literally traded a worst D-man in Montour for Guhle (prospect with top 4 D upside - an A prospect by your standard) + 1st. I mean is Liljegren > Guhle + 1st? I am talking pure value. No other considerations i.e. cap, age, etc. Just value is Liljegren > Guhle + 1st?



Lol... I thought you didn't want Manson? Now we're ruining our rebuild because we won't trade him to you for a sub-par offer.

You're clearly conflating multiple arguments from multiple different people because I didn't say or suggest most of what you seem to have a problem with. This is the situation:

1. TOR fans suggest a trade of Manson + Sherwood <-----> Ceci + Barrie + Bracco + 2nd or Kaps + Ceci + Bracco + 2nd. Something like this. It's always Manson for something decent + TOR scraps + cap dump.
2. I counter the suggestion stating that "Manson to TOR would have one of Sandin or Liljegren coming back the other way".
3. TOR fans scoff at my suggestion claiming that "Sandin and Liljegren are worth more than Manson".
4. I argue that, whilst there are many reasons you wouldn't trade Sandin or Liljegren in a deal for Manson, value isn't one of those reasons.

That's it! That's the argument. I didn't say Manson is a top pairing D-man. I didn't say he's worth what a top pairing D-man should get. But, in terms of pure value, in a vacuum, where no other considerations are made, he's absolutely worth one of Liljegren or Sandin. You've got to accept that there is risk attached to both of those prospect, where as Manson is a proven commodity. If you are unwilling to do that (which is so classic TOR fan) then there is nothing further to discuss. I'd love to get a level-headed neutrals view point on this though.

P.S. If you'd asked me to trade Sam Steel back in 2016-17 after his 131 pt WHL season for a 2nd line C I'd have turned it down too. However, look at him now? Not exactly setting the league on fire is he? That's because progression isn't linear and prospects are going to hit hurdles that they either make it over or get stuck at. This is why good NHL players come with multiple high grade prospects and picks because prospects and picks have risk attached and, despite having good numbers and even passing the eye test, they may struggle with the transition to the NHL. This is pretty basic stuff. Oh... I forgot... TOR prospects = the best prospects with no risk attached. How dumb of me.

Didn't read, too long and pointless. Go talk to some fan that thinks Manson is a hero. He's not worth what your asking for and I am done. Go away.

Lol... top 4D = hero. You've got no argument.