The difference is Muzzin was older, on an expiring contract and actively being shopped by LA. Manson isn't any of those things, so I have no idea why you'd think he'd cost the same. We set the price and it's going to be more than what Muzzin cost. Clearly you don't think he's worth it, so we'll just keep Manson. I don't know why you keep complaining about it. Just accept it and move on.



Ok, but that's going to be the price or we'll be keeping Manson. Manson isn't being shopped and we have needs that would have to be addressed with a Manson trade.



Demelo plays on the 2nd pairing for OTT behind Hainsey. He's not getting the toughest minutes. In any event, Manson has 3 seasons playing 20+ mins vs. Demelo's 1 (well, half season), but go ahead if you think he's better.

P.S. Funny how some TOR fans constantly complain that Manson doesn't produce enough points to warrant a big return, but you view Demelo as a better/high value option. Demelo's a perennial 20 pt guy, only has 7 NHL goals to his name (to Manson's 21) and has never sniffed the 37 pts that Manson put up last season... hmmmm, go figure.

You arent going to solve all your needs by moving one player. That would be like not selling your car because no one will give you a house for it

Of course, but adding any combination of AJ, KK, Dermott, Barrie, Bracco, Ceci + any pick that isn't a 1st doesn't address any of our needs at all.

I specifically commented on a post that you said a 1st, liljergen and keep adding.

I'm very critical of leafs fans delusions here. Your post was right up there

Fine, my "delusional" counter offer is what it will cost to get Manson. He's not being shopped. If you think it's too rich, then you can go elsewhere and we'll just keep Manson. Really no problem with that.

I don't think anyone is claiming Demelo is "better" than Manson, merely stating that the acquisition cost would be substantially less and Demelo essentially fills the same hole Manson does, Leafs management full heartedly believes Lilly is the future top pair RHD and is probably 2 seasons out from attempting to fill that role, so moving him for a player like Manson is a little short sighted considering the Forward Core is signed for 5/6 seasons. Yes Manson would be great beside Rielly but is Manson still great in 3 seasons at 30/31 years old and then at 5/6 million AAV or is Liljegren just as suited or possibly better in 3 seasons and signed in at 5/6 million over 7/8 years

I know you're not including me in this.

The problem is, as I have said many times, that Toronto and Anaheim are poor trade partners because both need high-quality RhD's. It would be different if you guys were looking for a leftie, anyone from Cam Fowler to Josh Mahura, but you guys want/need Manson and we need/want Liljegren, which is just playing musical chairs (I'm trying to think of a better metaphor but failing miserably).

Musical chairs got the point across.

Depends if you think Manson gives you a better shot at winning the cup now? JT isn't going to be elite forever and that's your C depth right there. IMO, without C depth you're never going to contend. I mean, you're talking about Liljegren stepping up in 2 years. JT will be 31 by then. Then you're probably waiting a season or 2 for Liljegren to truly settle in as top 4D (assuming he becomes a top 4D). I am not saying that JT won't still be good beyond 30, he's definitely going to be, but, with JT being slightly older then the rest of your core, you're definitely shortening your window by going the long route and waiting on prospects to develop, unless you can find another top level C to replace him.

Anyway, I think there is an argument for committing and an argument for standing pat. I mean, I don't view TOR as a true contender. The back-end is bad and TOR isn't not really built for the playoffs (i guess anything can happen once the playoffs start though). With that said, I don't think Manson is your answer (I don't think Demelo is either). He's a step in the right direction, but he's not going to improve you enough to put you past BOS, WSH, PIT, etc. I think if TOR had the opportunity to move Nylander+ for a legit top pairing RD I think they should do that and just move KK into the top 6. However, there really isn't that kind of player available. If I were TOR, I'd stand pat and try and sign a guy during the offseason. This really hasn't been your year with injuries and some players underperforming. Move on from Ceci, move on from Barrie, try and sign a good RD and hopefully get Liljegren in the line-up sooner.

So eventually we have come to the same conclusion, honestly I just think Barrie was the wrong guy to get is all but I also think that's why Kerfoot had to be part of the trade for the Leafs, 70% of the defensive problems TO has is team effort and 30% the tools they have on D, I'm not overly concerned with JT and his age he'll be 34 at the end of the contract not half way through, the long-term goal is to have a continuous window open not a small 3/4 year window

We agree on what TOR should do, but what I think Manson would cost to move is factored into that. He'd cost TOR Liljegren + 1st and probably more and I think Manson is absolutely worth that (even if many TOR fans don't). However, I don't think it's a good move TOR at all. I think that kind of commitment would be far better suited to a team that is trying to get over the hump, TB for example.

Like I said, I think TOR are better off standing pat and trying to sign someone in the offseason or seeing what's out there. If Nylander+ can be moved for younger, more well-rounded RD than Manson, even if their more of a #2 than a #1, I think TOR should go for it. D wins championships and you have plenty of skill and scoring. Losing Nylander would hurt, but KK could alleviate some of that loss and you'd be gaining a big piece on the back-end. Someone who'd be on the ice for a large chunk of the game. I also think you should continue adding more grit to your bottom 6. I mean, Spezza has no place on the 4th line.

Yeah, that continuous window is the dream. Sadly, I feel those days are gone with the salary cap era. It's more about shortening your time out of the playoffs through good drafting. Ultimately though, I think you have to tank for a few seasons to get an elite talent or two back into your line-up.