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Should They Consider Adding Grit Physicality And Size

Created by: AnalyticsGeek
Team: 2020-21 Pittsburgh Penguins
Initial Creation Date: Aug. 16, 2020
Published: Aug. 16, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Over the past week I’ve come across many Pens fans who suggested that the team needs to add some forwards with size, physicality and aggressiveness. In the past, I would’ve never considered this since the Penguins won back to back cups by being a fast and skilled puck possession team, but after their recent post-season collapse, it’s made me wonder whether or not its time for a philosophical change.

The thing is, the Penguins are no longer the fastest team in the NHL. Ever since their championship years, most of the league has adapted and opposing players can keep up with them. Now it is very easy for trap teams like Montreal to shut them down by preventing them from entering the neutral zone with speed and forcing turnovers to transition the other way. Perhaps having a few big and aggressive forwards who can outwork the opposing defence and win puck battles after the dump in will help exploit this defensive system.

Obviously the Penguins should not abandon the speed and skill philosophy altogether since their top players prefer that system, but maybe adding a few complimentary forwards in the bottom 6 will make it easier for them to make adjustments when playing against an opposition that has figured them out. Even during their 2016 and 2017 championship runs, they had a few forwards such as Kunitz, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Sheary, Wilson and Rowney who were extremely relentless and heavy on the forecheck. They would always pressure the defence and retrieve pucks to maintain the offensive zone cycle, something we didn’t really see in this series.

Now I shall showcase some potential players who play the heavy style the team could possibly look at:

Matt Martin: A fourth liner, he is part of the famous Martin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck trio that shuts down the opposition’s top forwards and gets under their skin. He doesn’t generate anything offensively, but his expected goals against ranks in the 99th percentile. Despite his age, he’s still one of the best forecheckers in the league. He might be willing to sign for the league minimum next season.

Zemgus Girgensons: Another guy who generates nothing offensively, Girgensons has established himself as a bottom 6 forward known for his defensive specialties and physical play. The Penguins could offer him a 1-2 year deal at around 1.5 Million. I think signing one of him or Martin could make ZAR available in which they can sell high and fetch a similar return compared to Blake Coleman.

Sam Bennett: Though he’s not the biggest, he plays quite an intimidating style as he delivers big hits and is relentless on the forecheck. He’s got good hands, skates well and generates scoring chances at a relatively high rate. Can play all Forward positions and is performing well this playoffs. I believe Calgary would want the 15th overall pick, which for me is too much given his lack of production.

Samuel Blais: He is an extremely aggressive and relentless forward. Is known for delivering huge hits and provides the team lots of energy. A beast on the forecheck. He isn’t particularly good at driving offence but he is decent defensively. Maybe St Louis would be interested in swapping Simon, or they’d want Legare.

Julien Gauthier: He was only a rookie this season but already established himself as one of the league’s best forecheckers. He’s got great size, skates extremely fast and is physical. He generates shot attempts at an above average rate but still needs to work on his defensive game, but expect him to get better as he grows.

Jesper Fast: Another NYR forward, he’s had an excellent season alongside Panarin and Strome. He is a good play driver at even strength and is also good defensively. He’s got excellent speed, is relentless on the forecheck and is not afraid to throw the body. Expect him to get a similar deal compared to Brandon Tanev.
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
4$3,500,000
2$1,500,000
2$900,000
2$3,000,000
1$900,000
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
2$1,500,000
2$2,000,000
Trades
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
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2021
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2022
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$76,350,175$0$850,000$5,149,825

Roster

Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,500,000$4,500,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$8,700,000$8,700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$5,500,000$5,500,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$9,500,000$9,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$2,050,000$2,050,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,500,000$1,500,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
$1,500,000$1,500,000
LW, C
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$750,000$750,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 5
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$4,100,000$4,100,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
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$7,250,000$7,250,000
RD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,000,000$3,000,000
G
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,025,175$4,025,175
LD
UFA - 5
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,250,000$1,250,000
G
UFA - 2
$2,000,000$2,000,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$900,000$900,000
LD
UFA - 2
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$900,000$900,000
RW, C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,150,000$1,150,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,500,000$1,500,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
RD
UFA - 1

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Should They Add Grit And Physicality?
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Aug. 16, 2020 at 4:23 p.m.
#1
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Edited Aug. 16, 2020 at 4:53 p.m.
What'd you guys think of the idea that the Penguins need to add grit and physicality? Are you in favour of it?

DON'T QUOTE THIS POST!
Aug. 16, 2020 at 4:28 p.m.
#2
Pop Pop
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Good lord sam Bennett is a playoff monster
Aug. 16, 2020 at 4:48 p.m.
#3
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Quoting: Jfstompers
Good lord sam Bennett is a playoff monster


Looks like he picks up his game for the big occasion.
Aug. 16, 2020 at 5:39 p.m.
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Who’s Legare? Blues may be open to it because they probably won’t protect Blais in ED
Aug. 16, 2020 at 5:50 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Looks like he picks up his game for the big occasion.


Could just be lucky bounces or he could have improved during the break too
Aug. 16, 2020 at 5:51 p.m.
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"but maybe adding a few complimentary forwards in the bottom 6 "

This is the problem with your whole thought right here.
Every time someone talks about bringing in size, everyone goes...... Oh we did that look at reaves trade it was so bad...blah blah blah.

And it's just stupid in stupid out.

Go look around the league. Teams got big physical players who can actually play hockey. Wilson, Tkachuk, Lee, Stone, PLD. You can go on and on.

Mean while our 5'10(maybe) 40 goal winger and 5'11(maybe) Crosby are the biggest guys on their line this series, none of which are ever going to do anything as the line got shoved to the ground. God knows the mop wasn't going to do anything he was too busy cleaning up the ice with his face.

The problem isn't fixed by adding people to the 4th line. They need bigger forwards who can actually bring an edge to their game and lay a hit. There is literally no forecheck on that top line. None.
Crosby can not be the biggest guy on that top line and we both know Jake and Crosby are never going to really hit anyone. The other team looks across there, see's guys 5-6 inches shorter then them and just shoves them around.
That isn't going to change because they aren't that much faster than those guys if at all. Does anyone really believe in a foot race it's going to be a blow out between them and the guys above I just mentioned?

Every team in the league knows this. You don't fix it bringing in Reaves.
They need to find a 6'3 230lb guy who can fly and is a bit nasty. It will make a huge difference come the playoffs. They sure as hell wouldn't be getting shoved around my MTL if that was the case. There would have been an ass whooping on the ice and the Small MTL team would have learned the hard way.
Furthermore, we just can't keep thinking anyone is going to come in here and take care of these things themselves. They should know they have help, and support. Which this team really doesn't have.
It's a team culture problem. You got guys out there that are willing to do whatever it takes to win a cup or go on deep runs, and get the large paycheck that comes with those things. We got guys who only want to play hockey. They aren't the same thing.
When teams know they aren't going to beat you skill wise they will find other ways. At some point you have to be willing to dish it back out and be able to across 4 lines. And not have some dumb ass coach who can't get it through his head that this is hockey you do indeed hit people. Especially when they are targeting your star players.
None of that happens on this team.
Aug. 16, 2020 at 6:17 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
"but maybe adding a few complimentary forwards in the bottom 6 "

This is the problem with your whole thought right here.
Every time someone talks about bringing in size, everyone goes...... Oh we did that look at reaves trade it was so bad...blah blah blah.

And it's just stupid in stupid out.

Go look around the league. Teams got big physical players who can actually play hockey. Wilson, Tkachuk, Lee, Stone, PLD. You can go on and on.

Mean while our 5'10(maybe) 40 goal winger and 5'11(maybe) Crosby are the biggest guys on their line this series, none of which are ever going to do anything as the line got shoved to the ground. God knows the mop wasn't going to do anything he was too busy cleaning up the ice with his face.

The problem isn't fixed by adding people to the 4th line. They need bigger forwards who can actually bring an edge to their game and lay a hit. There is literally no forecheck on that top line. None.
Crosby can not be the biggest guy on that top line and we both know Jake and Crosby are never going to really hit anyone. The other team looks across there, see's guys 5-6 inches shorter then them and just shoves them around.
That isn't going to change because they aren't that much faster than those guys if at all. Does anyone really believe in a foot race it's going to be a blow out between them and the guys above I just mentioned?

Every team in the league knows this. You don't fix it bringing in Reaves.
They need to find a 6'3 230lb guy who can fly and is a bit nasty. It will make a huge difference come the playoffs. They sure as hell wouldn't be getting shoved around my MTL if that was the case. There would have been an ass whooping on the ice and the Small MTL team would have learned the hard way.
Furthermore, we just can't keep thinking anyone is going to come in here and take care of these things themselves. They should know they have help, and support. Which this team really doesn't have.
It's a team culture problem. You got guys out there that are willing to do whatever it takes to win a cup or go on deep runs, and get the large paycheck that comes with those things. We got guys who only want to play hockey. They aren't the same thing.
When teams know they aren't going to beat you skill wise they will find other ways. At some point you have to be willing to dish it back out and be able to across 4 lines. And not have some dumb ass coach who can't get it through his head that this is hockey you do indeed hit people. Especially when they are targeting your star players.
None of that happens on this team.


We have a guy like that in Lafferty but Sullivan never plays him
Aug. 16, 2020 at 6:23 p.m.
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Quoting: Jesus
We have a guy like that in Lafferty but Sullivan never plays him


Lafferty isn't a top line player though. He doesn't even compare skill wise with those other guys I listed above an a lot more as well.
But I do agree. He should have played instead of Marlaue. Who is worthless.
But Sullivan doesn't like anyone who "gasp" is willing to hit someone. they might take a penalty....like the other teams in the playoffs give a crap while they smack around 40 goal scorers.

This team has issues, from the coach on down. There needs to be a real cultural shift here. They don't have forever to wait. Teams got 2 years left of Crosby and Malkin being able to carry them to a cup. Then forget it. With no real injection of young talent capable of holding this team up, they will be mid of the pack bubble team before being perennial losers.
Aug. 16, 2020 at 8:09 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
"but maybe adding a few complimentary forwards in the bottom 6 "

This is the problem with your whole thought right here.
Every time someone talks about bringing in size, everyone goes...... Oh we did that look at reaves trade it was so bad...blah blah blah.

And it's just stupid in stupid out.

Go look around the league. Teams got big physical players who can actually play hockey. Wilson, Tkachuk, Lee, Stone, PLD. You can go on and on.

Mean while our 5'10(maybe) 40 goal winger and 5'11(maybe) Crosby are the biggest guys on their line this series, none of which are ever going to do anything as the line got shoved to the ground. God knows the mop wasn't going to do anything he was too busy cleaning up the ice with his face.

The problem isn't fixed by adding people to the 4th line. They need bigger forwards who can actually bring an edge to their game and lay a hit. There is literally no forecheck on that top line. None.
Crosby can not be the biggest guy on that top line and we both know Jake and Crosby are never going to really hit anyone. The other team looks across there, see's guys 5-6 inches shorter then them and just shoves them around.
That isn't going to change because they aren't that much faster than those guys if at all. Does anyone really believe in a foot race it's going to be a blow out between them and the guys above I just mentioned?

Every team in the league knows this. You don't fix it bringing in Reaves.
They need to find a 6'3 230lb guy who can fly and is a bit nasty. It will make a huge difference come the playoffs. They sure as hell wouldn't be getting shoved around my MTL if that was the case. There would have been an ass whooping on the ice and the Small MTL team would have learned the hard way.
Furthermore, we just can't keep thinking anyone is going to come in here and take care of these things themselves. They should know they have help, and support. Which this team really doesn't have.
It's a team culture problem. You got guys out there that are willing to do whatever it takes to win a cup or go on deep runs, and get the large paycheck that comes with those things. We got guys who only want to play hockey. They aren't the same thing.
When teams know they aren't going to beat you skill wise they will find other ways. At some point you have to be willing to dish it back out and be able to across 4 lines. And not have some dumb ass coach who can't get it through his head that this is hockey you do indeed hit people. Especially when they are targeting your star players.
None of that happens on this team.


Quoting: Jesus
We have a guy like that in Lafferty but Sullivan never plays him


Yeah, I think every team would like to have a forward with size, physicality and has elite skill. The issue is, those are the hardest type of guys to get. You either draft them like CHI & BUF did with Dach & Cozens, or you have to trade a king's ransom to fetch a guy like Wilson or Tkachuk. Perhaps the Pens should've traded for Kreider at the deadline instead of Zucker, but Kreider is not good defensively and commands a higher salary, so tough call.

There are not a lot of options this offseason, so unless they make a big move for someone like Evander Kane, they're gonna have to change their culture by retooling the complimentary guys, similarly to what Tampa did. Tampa's top 2 lines are a bunch of small skilled guys & their bottom 6 have all the tough grinders (Goodrow, Coleman, Gourde, Verhaghe, Maroon) who do all the heavy forecheck to lift the team. Honestly, it's worked quite well so far as they're outplaying CBJ heavily.

The Pens have too many issues to solve this offseason with their need to fix the 3rd pair & get a top-line RW so they probably have to go this route. There are two guys who I think you guys would like: Julien Gauthier & Sam Bennett. Both extremely play extremely fast, physical & are aggressive on the forecheck, but haven't established themselves as top 6 players. They certainly have the talent to do so.
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Aug. 16, 2020 at 9:37 p.m.
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I like Bennett but Calgary might ask for a bit more than he's worth
Aug. 16, 2020 at 11:40 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Yeah, I think every team would like to have a forward with size, physicality and has elite skill. The issue is, those are the hardest type of guys to get. You either draft them like CHI & BUF did with Dach & Cozens, or you have to trade a king's ransom to fetch a guy like Wilson or Tkachuk. Perhaps the Pens should've traded for Kreider at the deadline instead of Zucker, but Kreider is not good defensively and commands a higher salary, so tough call.

There are not a lot of options this offseason, so unless they make a big move for someone like Evander Kane, they're gonna have to change their culture by retooling the complimentary guys, similarly to what Tampa did. Tampa's top 2 lines are a bunch of small skilled guys & their bottom 6 have all the tough grinders (Goodrow, Coleman, Gourde, Verhaghe, Maroon) who do all the heavy forecheck to lift the team. Honestly, it's worked quite well so far as they're outplaying CBJ heavily.

The Pens have too many issues to solve this offseason with their need to fix the 3rd pair & get a top-line RW so they probably have to go this route. There are two guys who I think you guys would like: Julien Gauthier & Sam Bennett. Both extremely play extremely fast, physical & are aggressive on the forecheck, but haven't established themselves as top 6 players. They certainly have the talent to do so.


There is definitely truth that these players are hard to find. No one is doubting that.
But they have had this problem for years now. And they can't seem to figure it out.

I think Josh Anderson is a guy they should target. I know CBJ will try to sign him or match. But maybe not. He'd cost a 2nd in compensation.
Which is probably far less than we'd pay for Krieder.

I don't know, I don't claim to have all the answers. But the need is clear. You can't win when Jake is constantly getting knocked down to the ice. And the mop is absolutely useless.
It's basically Crosby with the puck and no one to pass to. Something has to change.

This team needs to build itself for playoff hockey. You aren't going to just skate past anyone anymore. It happens in every sport. First they get faster, then they get bigger. rinse repeat. Until you plateau
We'll the NHL has officially started to plateau. Everyone has the speed, and the size of guys is next.
Aug. 17, 2020 at 1:10 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
There is definitely truth that these players are hard to find. No one is doubting that.
But they have had this problem for years now. And they can't seem to figure it out.

I think Josh Anderson is a guy they should target. I know CBJ will try to sign him or match. But maybe not. He'd cost a 2nd in compensation.
Which is probably far less than we'd pay for Krieder.

I don't know, I don't claim to have all the answers. But the need is clear. You can't win when Jake is constantly getting knocked down to the ice. And the mop is absolutely useless.
It's basically Crosby with the puck and no one to pass to. Something has to change.

This team needs to build itself for playoff hockey. You aren't going to just skate past anyone anymore. It happens in every sport. First they get faster, then they get bigger. rinse repeat. Until you plateau
We'll the NHL has officially started to plateau. Everyone has the speed, and the size of guys is next.


I think Anderson is a good option. He’s extremely fast & physical. Not to mention a pretty good goal scorer. I believe CBJ would be fine giving him up for a 2nd.
Aug. 17, 2020 at 7:20 p.m.
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I've thought for a while that Anderson would look good for Pitt.
I liked Reaves on this team more than many here. If memory serves correct I don't think he's been scratched much on more successful team.

So in many words, yes to more grit, and size too.
Aug. 18, 2020 at 4:06 p.m.
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I think Virtanen is the best and cheapest option we can get for this role. For many many reasons
 
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