Jun. 5, 2018
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Pensfan89</b></div><div>You’re the one backtracking all over this post. The dude is a center. Go look at his faceoff stats vs his linemates (Hintz and Robertson) faceoff stats and see who takes the majority of faceoffs on that line. I said he’s not strictly a RW because he can also play RW. That doesn’t mean it’s his primary position. But continue to grasp at straws. When your argument is terrible it’s what you do. The Kessel thing was a TOTALLY different scenario. He picked a bunch of contenders and then Arizona where Tocchet was. That trade was made in the offseason and Kessel had multiple years left on his contract and the pens are still looking to contend. Pavelski is a pending UFA and this would be made at the deadline if Dallas is out of it. They probably don’t care who they send him too, just as long as they get the best return. There is no emotional attachment to anything lol. You are really grasping at straws here. I’d be all for a Pavelski for Zucker trade. But it’s not at all realistic. Your whole argument has a bunch of stipulations that you’re assuming would happen. 1. Pavelski has to choose the pens, 2. Pavelski has to give them no other viable options, 3. Dallas is willing to hamstring themselves for a player they will no longer have, 4. Dallas is willing to hamstring themselves to help another team, 5. Dallas isn’t looking to find the best deal they can, 6. The pens wanting Pavelski, 7. The pens not having better deals they would prefer. Your theory is that there is no way all of those assumptions don’t line up, which is just nonsense. You’re the only one here with an emotional attachment. It’s your idea and everyone else agrees it’s a dumb one and you can’t take it. It’s ok. Just take some time off the internet so you can get over it lol. Btw your argument that teams aren’t paying much for rentals at the deadline anymore is unfounded. Nick foligno, Savard Savard, Mattias Janmark, struggling Taylor Hall all got at least a 2nd round pick. Savard and foligno got 1sts. So another argument that’s flawed.</div></div>
you realize the whole point of posting a trade is looking at the possibility of something. Clearly Pavs not wanting to play for the penguins or the penguins not wanting Pavs throws it all out..... That's not really the point and it's clear you don't get it.
In the end it's clear you are hung up on point 4
"4. Dallas is willing to hamstring themselves to help another team,"
You think Zucker is "hamstringing" DAL. And I have made the point over and over again that isn't necessarily true. But you don't want to agree on that. As if DAL couldn't move that out in a 3 way trade or something at no cost to them if not get a small return on it. You look at him as clearly only a negative.
WE don't agree on that. That's your hang up here.
Which leads to point 5.
"5. Dallas isn’t looking to find the best deal they can,"
A. Pavs will pick the team. I know you aren't getting that but that's true, he can block anything he doesn't want. So Lets say he does view the penguins as his best chance for a cup out of his offers.
The idea that DAL is "looking to find the best deal they can" really just get's thrown out the window. Because DAL isn't the one looking.
Furthermore, being a prick to a very well known aging vet and blocking him from going for a cup, isn't exactly helping DAL in any way shape at all.
WE clearly don't agree on those facts. But yet they are just that.
You want to go on and use the foligno trade as an example as teams still give up 1sts....and my whole point has been. The analytics show it's a bad move, teams have been following those, and yet again..... point proven. Trades like those continue to be the reason why less and less they occur. On top of it when you have a trade partner, who has openly stated they aren't trading their top 2 picks. When they traded for a very similar player in Carter for a 3rd and conditional 4th who had 2 years left.
The only absurdity here is you think teams are going to offer sky high returns on him.
I'll tell you now if he played defense it would be a totally different scenario and I'd probably say a player of his caliber would probably return that, but that's for totally different reasons. It's much harder to find defense help than forward help at all times and the market has been swayed that way for some time. Which explains a Savard for a 1st. But most people know TOR got ripped off, and those are facts the whole league looks at. It's not just fans with that opinion.
As for Pavs he is a RW. Just because a winger takes faceoffs doesn't make him a center. There is a whole lot more to being a center than taking faceoffs.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>BestGMBenning</b></div><div>Here’s your problem. You keep bringing up 2019 and 2020 and comparing that hockey to Pittsburgh in 2021. Pittsburgh in 2021 were more improved. They had offence and defence and good goaltending. It didn’t start out that way. But they got better. But Jarry simply didn’t stop the puck playoff time in times when needed. Since you want to bring up offence then why did a team like Carolina lose? Why did Colorado lose? They have the players that can put the puck in the net better than the majority of the league. They lost. They were teams that have it all like Tampa Bay. Offence, defence, goaltending. But why did they lose? Carolina had to score on Vasilevekiy and they couldn’t. Colorado had to score on Flower who was a brick wall at the time. You see the impact of goaltending? No Stanley Cup is won purely off of offence. You can’t win games if you see the minimum goals needed is 3. You’d need you’re goalie to allow a minimum of 2 goals. Which I know Jarry is capable of. He just wasn’t capable of it against the Islanders. I literally told you how little his work load was in the double OT game was. You remain blind to the fact that goaltending really makes a difference. Tampa Bay does have a top 10 even top 5 offence in the league. But they also have top 10 defence and top 3 goaltending. You see how well that gels together? Pittsburgh also had top 10 offence and top 10 defence. Jarry however wasnt a top 10 goalie at the time and it showed. Simple as that. But over and over again you fail to see the importance of goaltending.</div></div>
I hate to break it to you but you can say "different team" all day, everyone knew going into that NYI series it was the same mess. No one was really shocked by losing it were they?
You could have said the same thing then...different team. But it's not. It's still a lot of the exact same players. The core is still there. Not much has changed.
As far as why did CAR lose...they faced TB a high octane offense. COL played VGK another good offensive team. You can argue defense all day, If defense wins games why did NYI lose to TB. Why did MTL lose to TB? The answer to those is clear, when Price was done standing on his head the rest of the team was of no help to net a goal, and NYI had the same problem. Which is why they are a garbage team this year. They can't score.
You think Vasilevekiy was some brick wall.... how about those last two series he played teams that can't score but TB could. Had nothing to do with the goalie.
But Instead NYI faced an incompetent PIT team that couldn't net the puck, followed by a BOS team with 1 line worth anything that couldn't generate goals either. So they made it to the 3rd round to get run over by a team that could actually generate offense. How are those realities?
Be more objective. Don't be a homer for a team. This team has problems scoring goals when games count. Period. It's not the first time and it's not the last. A huge part of that over the years was SUlly's constant ignorance about not changing the system that people had figured out. Putting him up against Trots was a disaster in the waiting because of that. At least he's done things to change the game plan. But he sucks at adapting. That's been clear for a long time. The other problem is the total lack of a PP since they chased Kessel out the door. They went from a dangerous PP that made teams pay to one that's just awful the last few years. I don't know how you can not realize that and not recognize the effects it's had on their ability to win games. The third issue has been their lack of 5v5 offense. They can't net goals. It was completely apparent in the loss to MTL. It was apparent last year in the playoffs, and if they are going to have a real chance of winning in the playoffs this year they need to bring someone in to help on that aspect, and the PP. That's how they return to a cup.
At the end of the day we are both penguins fans. We both want to see the team win.
So lets just be blunt and honest about the real problems this team has faced and continues to face.
They didn't run out there and get Zucker for no reason at all, clearly they realized the need for more forward help. It's not like his not really shinning like everyone expected isn't noticeable. Clearly even they recognize the problem.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>BestGMBenning</b></div><div>Here you are still ignoring the stats I bring up and the importance of goaltending and the importance of defence. Did I say defence wins you games? I have not but it still play a a role in to winning games. Goaltending also plays a role in to winning games which is why the Islanders beat Pittsburgh. Simple as that. How do you think the series would’ve gone if Sorokin and Varlomov were doing as bad as Jarry did. You rely too much on the scoring. You still need the defence and goaltending. I will keep repeating this that you don’t win without defence and goaltending. The offence will always do it’s job. Those Stanley Cup winning teams always has a perfect mix of those. But the goaltending really shows a lot of importance. You don’t have that, there’s simply no winning. No defence, goalie faces too many shots. Offence only, you’d have to score a lot of goals a game because you have bad defence and a goalie facing too many shots. The game will always remain the same and it’ll really show. Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay don’t win their cups without their defence and goaltending. Because from your logic, teams in the past that had arguably better offence than them should’ve won the cup. But they didn’t because they were only an offensive powered team and nothing else. You’re offence only mindset is simply a dumb one. It’s an all round team that wins. Offence, defence, and goaltending. The ones that show the most in Cup runs is how well the goalie can stop the puck and how well the defence is able to shut down the opposing teams top lines. Which is what almost ever Cup winning team in the past 10 years had. They’re offence did their job, their defence had been disruptive to the opposing teams, and their goaltending actually making saves. They didn’t win strictly on offence as much as it helps.</div></div>
what stats, you didn't give any stats...
You just rambling at this point. As I said. You don't want to admit the skaters didn't get it done. You can ramble all day about goaltending. He put them in 2 OT games. 2, one went to double OT. How long do you need to score? You still haven't answered that question. It's not on the goalie when the forward group puts up 0 goals in a whole OT period is it? FFS dude, there is more then enough blame to go around. Stop pinning it on Jarry. He is the least of the concerns on the team right now. They need a scoring forward to help the lines because without it, it's gonna be the same crap where they can't get goals when they need them.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>F50marco</b></div><div>Are....are we going to dance around the point that the contention here is not WHICH team he goes to but WHO you have in exchange for him? Pavelski being traded to Pit is perfectly fine. Just not for Zucker. Or any player similar to Zucker in cap hit, age and production.
If Pit can't make the trade because of their cap situation, then A) Pit can go out and trade Zucker to someone else to create the cap space or B) ask that Dallas retains 50%. Heck even a 3rd team can be added to retain extra. Just like with the Foligno, Janmark, Savard trades last year.
Then once that's done, pay Dallas a 1st rounder +, Because that's what he'll cost you. Not a player whose signed to an overpriced contract that has 11 points this year.
And if Pit doesn't like it. Fine. Don't do it. Then Dallas calls Arizona and VGK/TB and brokers a 3 way in which Dallas and Arizona retain 50% each, leaving Pavelski only costing 1.7M in cap which VGK/TB can now afford.
-Pavelski goes to a cup contender. Check.
-Dallas gets a 1st round pick. Check.
-Arizona gets an extra pick for a few months of retaining. Check.
-Pittsburgh doesn't have to trade Zucker anymore. Check.
You don't get it, teams have walked away from trades like you are trying to suggest. The Foligno is a good example why.
Look at what PIT paid for Carter. They got 2 years on that deal not a rental. Carter came to PIT because he wanted to win, period. He wasn't just going anywhere.
He chose it, he controlled it. The return was not what one would have expected. It's going to be the same deal here. You are over here arguing the return of a 3rd. I have no idea even why.
Zucker will move out for cap reasons. You have this idea PIT is mortgaging the future to make this happen. They aren't.
Just like they didn't to get Carter.
If Pavs wants to come to PIT that's a reality you just refuse to accept. If that's the choice he makes to give him the best chance of winning a cup, DAL isn't blocking it. No matter what your wish for it is.
You act like Zucker is the issue here. He's not. DAL can easily move Zucker out. There are multiple teams that would take him for a small return. AZ, BUF are two. He's a 1 year deal so he's low risk high reward.
Someone take that.
These are realities. As I said before and I'll maintain it. Pavs is going to choose his own team, he will choose a place that A. gives him the best option of winning, and B. can fit him under the cap. I'm sure he'd love to join a team like TB.....but TB isn't going to fit him under a cap. So the options are very small here. PIT looks like a great fit.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Pensfan89</b></div><div>1. Yes I do get it. It’s you who isn’t getting it. He has a 3 team trade list so if Dallas wants to trade him, you best believe he has to give a 3 team trade list. Dallas isn’t going to hamstring themselves. He can tell them which order he’d prefer as in most willing to least willing. And Dallas can try to get him to his most willing team, but they aren’t obligated by any means.
2. I used more than just Boston. But way to cherry pick I guess. And right, Boston has 1 center. And how much better they’d be with a second center like Pavs. It’d make them so much deeper.
You make no sense. In point one you say he doesn’t have to list 3 teams and he will choose where he wants to go, then in point two say he will list 3-4 teams. And how does that make Nashville out? They are literally leading their division lol. I was literally going through teams currently in the playoffs in my head to show literally every other playoff team could do better than this offer whether they send cap back or not. I never said all of those teams have a shot at him. Simply that they’d be able to one up a pavs for Zucker trade.
Again you seem to forget Pavs is a top 6 forward who plays center and wing. He’d take over as 2C in Boston moving Coyle down to 3C. Hmmm what looks like a better option, going to Boston where your 3C becomes Coyle, or Pittsburgh where your 3 C would be Carter? I’d say Coyle is more likely the better 3C. And that’s nothing against Carter.</div></div>
3 team trade list. OTT, CHI SEA...boom. non of those teams are trading for him. Want to move, get my permission.
He is in full control. He's not going to just compete. And YES, they are obliged to move him. It's extremely disrespectful to the player to not move him, and every one else is watching. Teams don't go burning bridges like that as it comes back to them.
Pavs isn't a center, he's a winger. You need legs to play center in the top 6. He's 37 years old. BOS is already hiding Bergeron at center trying to prevent him from playing a 200 foot game to save his legs.
That's been going on for years now. It's why DK was so exposed when his game fell apart. It's why the gigantic hole at center down the line up right now is so evident.
As far as NSH, good luck on that, that's not a team winning a cup and everyone knows that.
Fact is you really don't get it. It shows by your response. No he does not have to list 3 teams. As I just did above. He can control his future. That doesn't mean he's not narrowing it down to where he wants to be. He will choose where that is based on HIS belief on where he can win. No DAL isn't getting in the way of that. They don't benefit by doing that at all. It's neither good for them as a team or league.
So prepare for Pavs to have HIS team, the cost isn't really the issue.