Bad Contracts Chychrun Trade and more

RFA	YEARS	CAP HIT
Capobianco, Kyle	2	$925,000
Dineen, Cam	2	$925,000
Hayton, Barrett	3	$1,150,000
Heponiemi, Aleksi	2	$850,000
Benson, Tyler	2	$850,000

UFA	YEARS	CAP HIT
Galchenyuk, Alex	1	$1,250,000
Strålman, Anton	1	$2,000,000

ROSTER SIZE	SALARY CAP	CAP HIT	OVERAGES	BONUSES	CAP SPACE
26	$82,500,000	$75,576,250	$0	$3,062,500	$6,923,750

Left Wing	Centre	Right Wing
van Riemsdyk, James $7,000,000$7,000,000 LW, RW UFA - 1	Schmaltz, Nick $5,850,000$5,850,000 RW, C UFA - 4	Keller, Clayton $7,150,000$7,150,000 LW, RW UFA - 6
Hayton, Barrett $1,150,000$1,150,000 C, LW RFA - 2	Turcotte, Alex $894,167$894,167 ($1,550,000$2M) C RFA - 2	Hörnqvist, Patric $5,300,000$5,300,000 RW M-NTC UFA - 1
Galchenyuk, Alex $1,250,000$1,250,000 LW, C, RW UFA - 1		Benson, Tyler $850,000$850,000 LW, RW UFA - 1
	McBain, Jack $883,750$883,750 ($850,000$850K) C, LW RFA - 1	Boyd, Travis $1,750,000$1,750,000 C, RW UFA - 2
Lucic, Milan $5,250,000$5,250,000 LW, RW M-NTC, NMC UFA - 1	Heponiemi, Aleksi $850,000$850,000 LW, C RFA - 1
Byron, Paul $3,400,000$3,400,000 LW, RW UFA - 1

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
	Söderström, Victor $863,333$863,333 ($630,000$630K) RD RFA - 2	Vejmelka, Karel $2,725,000$2,725,000 G UFA - 3
	Mayo, Dysin $950,000$950,000 RD UFA - 3
Moser, J.J. $886,667$886,667 ($32,500$32K) LD/RD RFA - 2	Timmins, Conor $850,000$850,000 RD RFA - 1	Khudobin, Anton $3,333,333$3,333,333 G UFA - 1
Capobianco, Kyle $925,000$925,000 LD UFA - 2	Myers, Tyler $6,000,000$6,000,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 2
Scandella, Marco $3,275,000$3,275,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 2
Nemeth, Patrik $2,500,000$2,500,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 2

Scratches	Injured Reserve (IR)	Long Term IR (LTIR)
Ladd, Andrew $5,500,000$5,500,000 LW M-NTC UFA - 1		Little, Bryan $5,291,667$5,291,667 C, RW M-NTC UFA - 2
Kassian, Zack $3,200,000$3,200,000 RW UFA - 2		Hagelin, Carl $2,750,000$2,750,000 LW UFA - 1
Strålman, Anton $2,000,000$2,000,000 RD UFA - 1

Jun. 21, 2022 at 12:03 p.m.

#26

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

I just gave you a response to you "telling" me that it wasn't OEL and Myers that held this team back by giving you actual data that shows it is precisely them. Those contracts most definitely are holding the team back. I think a lot of Canucks fans just haven't seen a good defenseman in a long time and assume OEL and Myers are ok. You pivoted there to making the playoffs. The team has an elite offensive defenseman, great goaltending, and good top 6 of course it's possible that they can make the playoffs. The two players that hold this team back more than anyone are Myers and OEL though. We'll see if Myers is tradeable this offseason I suppose. Mostly teams don't trade for underperforming expensive players.

That data is not a perfect science, you're suggesting this team would be better without those players on the roster, and the answer is no. Those players may be on inefficient deals, but they're still net positive impacts on the ice, those are two different factors

Jun. 21, 2022 at 3:37 p.m.

#27

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

That data is not a perfect science, you're suggesting this team would be better without those players on the roster, and the answer is no. Those players may be on inefficient deals, but they're still net positive impacts on the ice, those are two different factors

I didn't suggest that at all. I suggested that they are the reason the team is not a playoff team. That is because the money allocated to them is the most inefficient on the whole team. Simply taking them off the roster wouldn't solve anything on it's own. You are saying they are good top 4 defensemen. At 3 mil each they'd be a good second pair. You'd then have 7 mil to sign an actual top 2-3 dman. For the money they make there isn't any money leftover for a legit top pairing dman and so they have to play a role above their talent.

Your argument is akin to saying if Petey scores 10 goals next yr he won't have been part of the problem because he still got more goals than Lammikko. They have different roles. Myers and OEL are the two players on the team that are falling shortest of their roles based on what they're paid to do. If they made they made 3 mil less each, they'd be totally fine and we would still need a top 2 dman.

vikhodush liked this.

Jun. 21, 2022 at 6:55 p.m.

#28

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

I didn't suggest that at all. I suggested that they are the reason the team is not a playoff team. That is because the money allocated to them is the most inefficient on the whole team. Simply taking them off the roster wouldn't solve anything on it's own. You are saying they are good top 4 defensemen. At 3 mil each they'd be a good second pair. You'd then have 7 mil to sign an actual top 2-3 dman. For the money they make there isn't any money leftover for a legit top pairing dman and so they have to play a role above their talent.

Your argument is akin to saying if Petey scores 10 goals next yr he won't have been part of the problem because he still got more goals than Lammikko. They have different roles. Myers and OEL are the two players on the team that are falling shortest of their roles based on what they're paid to do. If they made they made 3 mil less each, they'd be totally fine and we would still need a top 2 dman.

OEL's market value right now is more like 5-5.5M, and Myers market value is around 4-4.5M at least, you're still lowballing their valuations. They aren't playing above their talent level as 2nd pair defenders, they're only being PAID above their talent level

My argument is nothing like what you're comparing it to. Canucks need a no. 2 D-man to become a contender, but they can make the playoffs with the roster as is

Jun. 21, 2022 at 7:24 p.m.

#29

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

OEL's market value right now is more like 5-5.5M, and Myers market value is around 4-4.5M at least, you're still lowballing their valuations. They aren't playing above their talent level as 2nd pair defenders, they're only being PAID above their talent level

My argument is nothing like what you're comparing it to. Canucks need a no. 2 D-man to become a contender, but they can make the playoffs with the roster as is

You can spitball any number you want. At least my number had some data to back it up. But even if I want to accept your made up number it doesn't change the fact that they are the two worst contracts on the team. Everyone else on the team (besides Dickinson) are playing close to or above their salary. So as has always been my point, Myers and OEL are the weak link in this team. They are the players most responsible for not making the playoffs. And btw the data showed was bad and this was despite them both exceeding expectations and having good yrs by their standards. We don't have any money for a 2D literally because of their contracts. The argument doesn't change because you think this roster could make the playoffs. They didn't. And the main reason in terms of expectation vs cap was Myers and OEL. Myers has been a big reason the team was awful the yr before too. So don't tell me they aren't negative value when they're the worst value on the team.

Jun. 21, 2022 at 7:27 p.m.

#30

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

You can spitball any number you want. At least my number had some data to back it up. But even if I want to accept your made up number it doesn't change the fact that they are the two worst contracts on the team. Everyone else on the team (besides Dickinson) are playing close to or above their salary. So as has always been my point, Myers and OEL are the weak link in this team. They are the players most responsible for not making the playoffs. And btw the data showed was bad and this was despite them both exceeding expectations and having good yrs by their standards. We don't have any money for a 2D literally because of their contracts. The argument doesn't change because you think this roster could make the playoffs. They didn't. And the main reason in terms of expectation vs cap was Myers and OEL. Myers has been a big reason the team was awful the yr before too. So don't tell me they aren't negative value when they're the worst value on the team.

It's not data, it's metrics that are relatively measured, they don't objectify good or bad quality. Myers and OEL are NOT the weak link on the team, they aren't dragging the team down with their on ice play, just stop it. Myers can be moved in order to create cap space to acquire a no. 2 defender, obviously OEL can't, but he's already our 3D anyway and he's a good one. A negative asset doesn't equate to dragging down a team's on ice performance

Jun. 21, 2022 at 7:38 p.m.

#31

Kalopsia

Joined: Jun. 2018

Posts: 630

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Caps already have one of the best PP QBs in the league in Carlson (and their system is very rigid about handedness, requiring a right-shot at the point), so Ghost’s best skill would be wasted in DC. They’ve got much bigger needs to address if they’re gonna move their 1st.

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:03 p.m.

#32

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

It's not data, it's metrics that are relatively measured, they don't objectify good or bad quality. Myers and OEL are NOT the weak link on the team, they aren't dragging the team down with their on ice play, just stop it. Myers can be moved in order to create cap space to acquire a no. 2 defender, obviously OEL can't, but he's already our 3D anyway and he's a good one. A negative asset doesn't equate to dragging down a team's on ice performance

Who are the negative players on the team then?

This is probably the first time since Myers signed that his contract might be moveable. I hope we can do it but I also know it's wishful thinking to some degree. I would be will to move him with something small if that is what it took. That much cap space would be huge going forward for this team and he would be replaceable.

I think I'll take the actual advanced metrics and my eye test over your feelings. I think the main issue is you don't seem to be equating cap hit to value of play. If there weren't a salary cap then I'd agree with your analysis. They are the 2nd (OEL) and 3rd or 4th (Myers) best dmen on the team however when you equate their salaries that where the negative value comes in.

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:06 p.m.

#33

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

Who are the negative players on the team then?

This is probably the first time since Myers signed that his contract might be moveable. I hope we can do it but I also know it's wishful thinking to some degree. I would be will to move him with something small if that is what it took. That much cap space would be huge going forward for this team and he would be replaceable.

I think I'll take the actual advanced metrics and my eye test over your feelings. I think the main issue is you don't seem to be equating cap hit to value of play. If there weren't a salary cap then I'd agree with your analysis. They are the 2nd (OEL) and 3rd or 4th (Myers) best dmen on the team however when you equate their salaries that where the negative value comes in.

Myers IS tradeable, mark my words, now whether the team decides to move him or not is another question, but there are already media reports talking of a market for Myers

I was never equating cap hit to value of play, getting value for one's money and being a good player are two completely different things, and I'm not sure why you aren't able to see that

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:18 p.m.

#34

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

Myers IS tradeable, mark my words, now whether the team decides to move him or not is another question, but there are already media reports talking of a market for Myers

I was never equating cap hit to value of play, getting value for one's money and being a good player are two completely different things, and I'm not sure why you aren't able to see that

There is a market doesn't mean there will be a return necessarily. But I'll admit I dont think it's impossible. Unlikely though in my opinion.

I can see your analysis and I have taken it a step further which I think you are starting to get now. You can't talk about a players worth being high if they aren't performing to there contract in a hard cap league. If we paid Horvat 15 mil a season would you say it's not his fault we aren't winning when he scores 60 points? Of course it would be. The cap is the hard thing to manage, you can't have numerous overpaid players, especially when you don't have many underpaid/team friendly deals.

If you still can't understand my point, tell me the players that are worst performing and the biggest reason we missed the playoffs?

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:24 p.m.

#35

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

There is a market doesn't mean there will be a return necessarily. But I'll admit I dont think it's impossible. Unlikely though in my opinion.

I can see your analysis and I have taken it a step further which I think you are starting to get now. You can't talk about a players worth being high if they aren't performing to there contract in a hard cap league. If we paid Horvat 15 mil a season would you say it's not his fault we aren't winning when he scores 60 points? Of course it would be. The cap is the hard thing to manage, you can't have numerous overpaid players, especially when you don't have many underpaid/team friendly deals.

If you still can't understand my point, tell me the players that are worst performing and the biggest reason we missed the playoffs?

Yeah, obviously we wouldn't pay Horvat 15M against the cap, but that's way more lopsided inefficiency than with Myers or Ekman-Larsson's current deals. Like I said, I was just saying that the Canucks can MAKE THE PLAYOFFS with both Myers and Ekman-Larsson both simultaneously on the books, I said the PROBABLY CAN'T WIN A STANLEY CUP with both deals on the books, that's the distinction I was trying to make

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:29 p.m.

#36

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

Yeah, obviously we wouldn't pay Horvat 15M against the cap, but that's way more lopsided inefficiency than with Myers or Ekman-Larsson's current deals. Like I said, I was just saying that the Canucks can MAKE THE PLAYOFFS with both Myers and Ekman-Larsson both simultaneously on the books, I said the PROBABLY CAN'T WIN A STANLEY CUP with both deals on the books, that's the distinction I was trying to make

Well yes the Horvat example was an extreme example to highlight my point.

This now feels like a meaningless conversation. I said they were the two biggest reasons the team isn't good. And you are saying they can make the playoffs with them. Which I'm not contesting.

On a similar but different note. Cup contention is the only thing worth striving for in my mind. Going all out to make the playoffs is the reason we have floundered for a decade. Also I think a big contributing factor (along with luck) that no Canadian team has won the cup since 93'

Jun. 21, 2022 at 8:32 p.m.

#37

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

Well yes the Horvat example was an extreme example to highlight my point.

This now feels like a meaningless conversation. I said they were the two biggest reasons the team isn't good. And you are saying they can make the playoffs with them. Which I'm not contesting.

On a similar but different note. Cup contention is the only thing worth striving for in my mind. Going all out to make the playoffs is the reason we have floundered for a decade. Also I think a big contributing factor (along with luck) that no Canadian team has won the cup since 93'

Only feels meaningless to you because of your overly dismissive nature, but I get that it's just the way some people are. Canucks weren't going all in just to make the playoffs during the first half of the 2010's, so it's only been half a decade of aiming too low, but I get what you mean

Myers and OEL don't make this team bad, they very much make the team better, just not better enough hence their inefficient contracts

Jun. 26, 2022 at 1:47 a.m.

#38

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

Only feels meaningless to you because of your overly dismissive nature, but I get that it's just the way some people are. Canucks weren't going all in just to make the playoffs during the first half of the 2010's, so it's only been half a decade of aiming too low, but I get what you mean

Myers and OEL don't make this team bad, they very much make the team better, just not better enough hence their inefficient contracts

If you wanna rehash it we can. It's meaningless only because the point you pivoted to is the Canucks can make the playoffs. I never said they couldn't. I said it was OEL and Myers that were the biggest drags, to be very precise because of their contracts. In a vacuum they are not the two worst players on the team. Somehow you don't see that, or aren't good at articulating the nuance you felt so strongly about interjecting.

Jun. 26, 2022 at 3:15 p.m.

#39

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

If you wanna rehash it we can. It's meaningless only because the point you pivoted to is the Canucks can make the playoffs. I never said they couldn't. I said it was OEL and Myers that were the biggest drags, to be very precise because of their contracts. In a vacuum they are not the two worst players on the team. Somehow you don't see that, or aren't good at articulating the nuance you felt so strongly about interjecting.

I don't know why you continue to troll. You're not even trying to settle this dispute, all you're doing is trying to create toxic fodder to feed off of

Jun. 27, 2022 at 1:20 a.m.

#40

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

I don't know why you continue to troll. You're not even trying to settle this dispute, all you're doing is trying to create toxic fodder to feed off of

I made a point and then backed it up with data. You offered your opinion and never even attempted to back it up. Eventually I gave up and you come back that I'm overly dismissive. So I broke it down as clearly as possible, somehow you got your feelings hurt. I don't think I said anything even remotely toxic.

Jun. 27, 2022 at 3:39 a.m.

#41

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

I made a point and then backed it up with data. You offered your opinion and never even attempted to back it up. Eventually I gave up and you come back that I'm overly dismissive. So I broke it down as clearly as possible, somehow you got your feelings hurt. I don't think I said anything even remotely toxic.

No, you didn't do that at all. You're just trying to prolong an argument, you're not trying to settle anything

Jun. 29, 2022 at 2:33 p.m.

#42

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

No, you didn't do that at all. You're just trying to prolong an argument, you're not trying to settle anything

I said I'm done here after actually making arguments to your flippant opinion and you dragged it back out saying I'm dismissing your opinion. You haven't brought anything other than your opinion so it's hard to say much more.

Jun. 29, 2022 at 6:00 p.m.

#43

Knuckl3s

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Quoting: BigShoots

I said I'm done here after actually making arguments to your flippant opinion and you dragged it back out saying I'm dismissing your opinion. You haven't brought anything other than your opinion so it's hard to say much more.

You WERE dismissing my opinion like it or not, and I'm not sure what more I need to bring honestly. I'm not even sure why you bothered to come back to this thread weeks later

Jun. 29, 2022 at 11:38 p.m.

#44

BigShoots

Big Shoots

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Quoting: Knuckl3s

You WERE dismissing my opinion like it or not, and I'm not sure what more I need to bring honestly. I'm not even sure why you bothered to come back to this thread weeks later

My guy, I made a point and backed it up. You gave an opinion that contradicted what I was saying but you didn't add any data or reasoning to back it up. You didn't seem to understand what was being said. Don't be butt hurt because you had to question your opinion. Just be better next time.

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