I wouldn't mind it if Turcotte was closer to his DY prospect level but in DY+4 and his injury history, I don't think he can be one of the main pieces in a TK & Hart trade. Love Bjornfot but don't think this moves the needle for both players.

It's a fair point but I did try to take this into account. Flyers would have to do their due diligence for sure, but sometimes injuries are just bad luck and thankfully none of his seem to be reoccurring. This is the one detail that would make him available at all, because from a pure talent standpoint he's probably the most valuable player in this trade. Any trade for futures carries at least some gamble, but the potential payoff here could include a top line forward and a top pair D, to go along with an NHL player in Lizotte, a 2nd, a 4th and whatever you can get for arvidsson which I'd think would at least be a 1st rounder.

What do you think would make the Flyers pull the trigger? Interested to hear your perspective for sure.

Yeah this just ain’t it. Arvidsson can probably get a 2nd at the deadline so that’s fine but we are full of LHD and can’t use anymore so that prospect is useless to us, Lizotte is a 3rd liner, and Turcotte is more likely to be a bust than he is a productive top 6 player. There’s just nothing interesting in this trade aside from Turcotte. Any trade that involves TK starts with Clarke any trade that involves Hart AND TK starts with Byfield. Neither of which the Kings have any interest moving. I’d do a 1st and Turcotte for Hart alone but the Kings have no real need for TK nor would they want to pay the cost

Full of LD? In what world? Lizotte is a 3rd liner sure, but could likely be traded for a 2nd or third. Arvidsson is absolutely worth a 1st based on comparables, so let's go the benefit of the doubt and say those to return a 1st and 3rd. The 1st and Turcotte go for Hart. A 2nd, 3rd, 4th and Bjornfoot is at least a reasonable starting point for Konecny, but maybe swap the 2nd for an additional first.

Can anyone explain the Kings thought of a goalie trio of Talbot, Copley and Rititich?

That is so bad.

They might as well re claim M. Jones off waivers when the Leafs place him there.

York as a 1LHD of the future, Sanheim signed for 8 years, Andrae Seeler Ginning Zamula all fighting for 3rd pairing spot lol. The Kings prospect would be probably 5th on that depth chart lmao. This trade works for neither team and would be declined by both teams if either offered it

They all had league average save percentages (.898) or better last season. Not sure why "that is so bad."

The Kings are going the Vegas route and essentially testing whether or not they can get through the regular season with mediocre goaltending. It worked for them last season, as Copley carried them to the playoffs. They can trade for an improvement at the deadline when cap hits are pro-rated, if necessary.

C'mon now.. They had .898, .901 and .903 sv percentages between them. Copley certainly didn't carry them anywhere, that's why they went out and acquired Korpisalo, who walked after posting a .892 sv percantage in the playoffs resulting in the Kings getting knocked out in 6 games.

VGK had 3 goalies over .915% and never intended to go the route they did after targeting Lehner and not having him available. There is still a certain standard for goaltending and VGK's run didn't prove that the Kings are competent in this area.

The Flyers fan above mentioned that he'd accept Turcotte and a 1st for Hart, which I think would be a wise trade for the Kings to make.

The Kings lost in the playoffs because they played McDavid and the Oilers and gave them too many power plays. Their PK efficiency was 44%. Vegas, the eventual Cup winner, didn't fare much better. If the Kings had Carter Hart in net for the playoffs, they still would have gotten bounced in the first round.

Copley set a franchise record for fastest goaltender to 20 wins in a season in history. Better than Vachon and Quick, both of whom have (or will have) their jerseys hanging in the rafters. They were hemorrhaging goals with Quick and Petersen in net, and Copley came in and gave them good enough goaltending to win games. Without Copley, the Kings would not have made the playoffs.

I wouldn't give up a 1st round pick for ANY goaltender in the NHL, let alone one that has been average over the last 3 season. I certainly wouldn't add Turcotte to that trade.

I don't want to get caught up in this argument because pretending the Kings goaltending is not a weakness is just a non-starter. What I will say is you have a fairly strange perspective here given that he played 37 games and posted a .903%. They made the playoffs in spite of him, not because of him. Obviously this is why they went out to acquire a goalie at the deadline.

He's 31 and has played more than the games in a season twice in his career, posting a .903% this past year in 37 games, and a .905% in 27 games for the Caps in 2018-19. Using a PP success rate of 44% to defend the goalie who was on the ice for those penalty kills is completely backwards. You can argue whether or not Hart would have fared better than Korpisalo and I would argue that he would have, but regardless Korpisalo is gone so that's not the comparison we'd be looking at.

With all due respect, let's be honest with each other and apply a bit of common sense here.

The Kings goaltending not being a strength is different than it being a weakness. Their goaltenders likely aren't going to steal victories for them, but the Kings are counting on their team defense being good enough to where they shouldn't have to. They were very good last season -- good enough to finish 3rd in the Pacific division -- and that's with a career AHL goaltender in net. The team in front of Copley only got better over the off-season. There's no reason to suspect that they'll do any worse.

You know who else was a career minor-league goaltender at age 30? Tim Thomas. He didn't turn out so bad. Is Pheonix Copley the next Tim Thomas? We won't know until they give him a chance.

A lot of Kings fans are miffed that the Kings opted to go with Korpisalo over Copley when Copley is the guy who got him there. Korpisalo was not very good in the playoffs. We'll never know if Copley would have done better.

I am applying common sense here. I'm parroting the exact talking points that Luc Robitaille and Rob Blake have been saying in their media availability, in that they're satisfied with their goaltending and are going to see what the three guys can do before they try to fix something that hasn't proven to be broken. They started off with significantly worse goaltending for the first two months of last season, and still did well enough to finish 3rd in the Pacific.

There's absolutely no reason to overreact and overpay for an average goaltender like Hart before the Kings can see what their current average goaltenders can do.

Maybe there are examples of things that are neither a strength or a weakness, but to fit that definition that would mean they're mediocre at best. This doesn't apply here because the Kings goaltending is a glaringly obvious weakness. If we're being honest and objective, we can both see that is an unarguable truth. Even Tim Thomas (who is probably the biggest anomaly in the history of goaltenders) was much more established than Copley at the same age. He was given an opportunity to take the net at 29 and posted a .917 in 38 games. From then on he was given a starters load of games and at the same age as Copley posted a .921 in 55 games.

Copley was given an opportunity, played 37 games and posted a .903 on one of the best defensive teams in the league, numbers that are not good at all, but actually quite bad for a starter on a team with intentions of contending. That's why he was replaced by Korpisalo, who himself is a middling goaltender but posted a .917 with LA down the stretch to earn him the starter's job in the playoffs.

Talbot is the only goalie you have who has even been a somewhat competent backup to this point. He's 36, and he's not a guy you should bet on either. You also talk about Copley being the guy who got them there, but where did exactly did he get them? What are you so proud about finishing 3rd in your division and getting knocked out of the playoffs in 6 games?

I find this bizarre because as a Kings fan you should be the one arguing that your team can go all the way if they make the necessary improvements, something I'd consider realistic. You have absolutely elite center depth, with 3 centers who at their best are selke level defenders, two of whom can also produce at a PPG. You have size, grit and skill on the wings and should be set at forward for the distant future with the pipeline you have behind them. You also have a top 4 that is elite defensively, led by one of the best defenders in the game and one of the few who has won a Norris based largely on his defensive play rather than point production. Your former selke winner at 1C is 36, your former Norris winner is 33, you're absolutely in a window where you can compete for the cup.

With the combination of Kopitar, Dubois, Danault and Byfield being a natural center, Turcotte is a logical trade chip to improve the roster elsewhere. As mentioned, the forward group looks to be set now and in the future, as does the D with another potential #1 in Clarke making his way through the ranks.

The goalies on your roster are objectively awful, and you have little help coming through the pipeline. Carter Hart made more starts on a bottom-feeder team last year than any goalie on your current roster and posted better numbers than all of them. He just turned 25 and is cost controlled for the distant future. He posted a .917% in 31 games as a 20 year old, and a .914% in 43 games as a 21 year old. He was always a a highly touted goaltender and has nothing to suggest he's not a true starter on a playoff team.

Ignoring actual results, talent, projections and age to say that Copley might have become Tim Thomas if given the chance is not common sense at all, it's quite literally the definition of non-sense. Maybe if the Leafs had started Kyle Clifford he might have performed like Matthew Tkachuk and won us the cup.....

The Kings were very much NOT one of the most defensively competent teams in the league. That was the case under Darryl Sutter and even Jon Stevens, but they've gone away from their defensive roots and embraced a more offensive system. This past season, in December, they were the single worst team in the entire league in goals against per game. Copley took over and helped right the ship, but playing in front of the team that he did, he was lucky to put up league average numbers. So while East coast hockey fans that don't watch the Kings very much might think the Kings are defensively competent, they're very much not.

The Kings stabilized things after the trade deadline when they brought in Gavrikov and traded away Durzi (addition by subtraction). In his final 9 starts after the deadline (i.e. behind a halfway competent defense), Copley was 6-2-1 with a .915 SV% and a 2.18 GAA. That same defense was brought back this season, and they've only further improved the team around them.

So you can spout your subjective opinions and try to claim "objectively" all you want, but all they are is your opinion. Robitaille and Blake (and even McLellan) have said they're very confident in the goaltending group that they have, and are looking forward to see what they can do. They're not going to make any moves until they see what these guys can do behind this team. If they can't get the job done, then I'm sure the Kings will look to make a mid-season move to try and make an improvement. However, if Copley can repeat his performance from last Spring, the Kings will be competing for the division title in the Pacific with Vegas and Edmonton.

Just dont think thats enough.

Turcotte's value isnt great, Arvidsson would have to play well on a worse team and then PHI would have to do the legwork to move him, (PHI will have Walker, Seeler, Staal, Atkinson and maybe others to move themselves), Bjornfoot is good, but with York, Andrae, Ginning all looking good and Sanheim signed long term, I'm not sure Bornfort is as needed a piece as he would be, Lizotte is a probable bottom 6 winger on a team full of guys for bottom 6 wingers.

And this is all probable on Hart and Koneckny looking good. I could see Koneckny retained for Bjornfoot, a looking good Turcotte, the 2nd and 4th because theres alot of real maybes/flawed goods there, but whats left for Hart, Lizotte and Arvidsson?

Just not sure that this offer would be close to what PHI wants/needs

Spout my subjective opinions? Man, that is rich. Rather than me spouting my objective opinion that the team with the 4th fewest shots against in the regular season is good defensively, let me share what Rob Blake himself said:

"I don’t know. I thought, overall, our defense and the way they defended, it was good. If you look at the regular season — and the defending numbers and analytics on defense — We were a top team, structure-wise and everything. Those guys play hard on the backend."

I guess you've got an "east coast fan" as your GM!

Sure, swapping Durzi for Gavrikov improved the D but that alone does not account for the Kings being one of the league's best defensive teams last year. It's comical how oblivious you are bringing up the fact they were the worst team in December for GA while defending your goaltending. Do you guys out there on the west coast know what a goalie's job is?

They already showed that they weren't confident in the goalie group when they traded away their #1 and #2 (spurning Quick to do so) and were basically the only playoff team who tried adding a starter at the deadline; one who despite being average himself was the preferred option for obvious reasons and put up better results as everyone and their dog expected.

You're seriously going to cherry pick a stretch of 9 games where he put up average stats for a starting goalie, instead of looking at the .903% he posted in 37 games last season, or the last 3 games of the season where he let in 12 goals in 4 games, or the fact he played in 1 NHL game in the 4 years leading up to this season? Or that he's 31, has never been more than a 3rd stringer, was undrafted and has put together an awful career as an NHL goalie?

He got his big opportunity in round 1 when Korpisalo got pulled - far from going on the Tim Thomas caliber run you're idealizing in your head, he let in 2 goals on 8 shots and the Kings went right back to Korpisalo for game 6.

But sure pal, your goalies are above average, if only barely. An average that consists of every 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th string goalie who played last year on both playoff and non-playoff teams alike. That must suggest they're capable of being a starter for a contending team all of a sudden!

Keep drinking the Kool-aid buddy, you are truly delusional. Good luck though!

Give us Byfeild somehow in this deal with just removing one prospect, and you have a deal.

I think you need to google the word "objective."



Yes, I'm going to look at the Kings' stretch run when they had their entire roster intact. Before then, they had several key injuries and a very shaky defense. But as you say, if the Kings were "structurally very good" defensively, what key change allowed them to go from 31st in the NHL in GA on December 16, 2022 to 6th best in the NHL in GA from Dec 17 to the end of the season? They're bringing back the same defense next season that they had during that stretch run.

Just like when Lou Brown opts to go with Eddie Harris over Rick Vaughn against the Yankees, Blake opted to go with playoff experience in Korpisalo. It turned out to be the wrong choice. Put in a cold goaltender not expecting to play after not starting a game for 2+ weeks is not really putting him in a position to succeed. So who's cherry picking their samples now?

However all of this is moot, because the Kings management has already said they're going to start the season with the goaltenders they have. They have also said they're excited to see what Turcotte can do this season. There isn't going to be a Kings trade for a goaltender before Christmas at the absolute earliest.

Finally, if Carter Hart is so amazing, then the Flyers should keep him.

"(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

Yes, you're the one being objective. I just have way too much skin in the game not to be biased...

This is brilliant though, truly brilliant. You've convinced yourself at least and that's what's important! I was literally criticizing you by using other examples of stats you could have cherry-picked, man you're bright. It was me using his career to judge him, remember? Probably not.

All the best pal, can't argue with crazy.

I never claimed I was being objective. You did.

All I said was that Blake has said numerous times that they're satisfied with their goaltenders to start the year and don't plan to make any changes. That makes your trade proposal moot.

You're welcome guys... for starting you onto this path of silliness.

3 career backup goalies is what the Kings have, continue to argue, but that's the fact.

Quick edit... Talbot topped out as a 1B goalie, but that was years ago.

I don't disagree with that assessment.

Where I disagree is on the question of whether 3 backup goalies is enough to keep the Kings in a comfortable playoff position at the deadline. I believe it is. More importantly the Kings think it is, and they have said as much.

Why weren't you clear on this from the very beginning? Let's get the obvious out of the way first by acknowledging that is not even paraphrasing what was said by Blake, because if it were Kings fans should have been up in arms given that comfortably making the playoffs is far from what fans should expect.

As I said already, I believe the Kings have the potential to win the cup with a few small tweaks and the title of this post is literally "Kings take the step". The roster above is one that is more than capable of winning a cup, a window that will not totally close as Kopitar and Doughty age, but one that will certainly shrink. Konecny and Dubois would be massive additions to the forward core, and Hart would be an obvious upgrade in net.

I'd actually agree with you that your 2 backup goalies could get you into the playoffs, so if that's your goal then I guess you might be fine...

No one said that the Kings will end the season with the same goaltenders that they started it with. But they're not trading for a goaltender at the beginning of the season, and when they do trade for a goaltender, it's likely going to be for a rental, and won't include Turcotte before they can see how he does this season or one of their few NHL ready defensemen. More likely it will be similar to someone like Korpisalo last season. A backup goaltender on an expiring contract that put up quality numbers on a team that isn't going to make the post season. They're not looking to solve the goaltender of the future problem during the season. There will be plenty of UFA and trade targets available next summer when there's a lot more cap room to work with.

The top target at the deadline is probably Kevin Lankinen from Nashville, assuming he has a solid year.

No one said that, but you're arguing with me because I'm claiming they won't. How is it more logical to add a goaltender part way through the season than right now? Let alone a guy who might be a 3rd string on a non-playoff team. The cap in this trade would be a wash and this would probably be your most cost-effective option to address the goaltending now and in the long-term.

You're saying you don't want to trade one of your few NHL defensemen but the only players you'd be subtracting from the roster would be Lizotte and Arvidsson, who you'd be replacing with Konecny and Hart. This is literally a potential cup winner and you wouldn't be sacrificing much of the future to get here either. Why would you not want to take advantage of Kopitar-Dubois-Danault down the middle, Doughty-Roy-Clarke down your right side, Gavrikov and Andersson as your top 2 LD, with Kempe, Byfield, Kaliev, Konecny, Fiala and Moore on your wings?

This is pretty much my ideal playoff team and you're too tentative to take the shot, settling with a comfortable playoff spot instead.

Weak AF.

I'm arguing with you because you're saying the Kings will trade for a goaltender now before the ones they signed even play a single game. They won't. Management has said as much already. A trade deadline move for a goaltender is likely if none of the three they signed run away with the starting job.

Bjornfot is the projected 3LD this season. Englund was signed as a poison pill contract designed to clear waivers so that they'll have a veteran option available to cover for injuries, if needed. So no, there's three roster players being removed here and you're not providing a replacement for one of them, and you leave zero redundancies to cover for injuries on the left side by making Englund a starter.

Sure Arvidsson to Konecny is a modest upgrade, but I think the Kings are quite happy with the chemistry that Arvidsson and Danault have built and don't want to mess with that. Depending on how much money Arvidsson wants, I'm more inclined to think the Kings will re-sign him than trade him away.

I don't think the "upgrade" from Copley/Talbot to Hart is as big as you make it out to be, especially since you're substantially subtracting from other areas of the lineup. Goaltenders are largely a product of the teams that play in front of them, and there's absolutely no way to know what Talbot, Rittich, or Hart will look like playing for the Kings.