And I’d argue holtz upside is the same as that of Cole Caufield. (He’s having a very similar season to last years Cole), and a similar archetype of a defensively limited sniper. Caufield has more offensive upside while holtz very likely ends up being better defensively. (Caufields power play metrics are horrific btw)

Holtz isn’t going to be better than Caufield. He will be a 30 goals scorer 70 pts if he bounce back on pp. that’s his ceiling. Caufield will probably hit 30 goals/65 pts this year on a weak year…

Also, Caufield has some pretty underrated defensive number

Holtz has shown he can put points on the board not on the power play. Something montreal desperately needs. He slots in on line 2 in montreal today because the competition for the 2RW role is currently Joel Armia.

And going forward he slots in there because the competition is Josh anderson. Again, unless you want to put Dach at RW and even then I'd argue you're better off with Holtz with even more development than Dach coming back from his knee exploding.

You've made no justification for why it doesn't make sense:

Montreal objectively needs to add multiple top 6 quality guys/elite upside guys if they want to compete. Holtz is that.

They objectively have a surplus of Dmen.

So a swap of D for F should make sense.

Holtz is identical age to Guhle so it makes no sense why a rebuilder wouldn't want him.

You can argue value if you want, for which I have provided a comp of montreal making an identical move.



This move would simply be montreal trading from a positional surplus into a positional deficit. Simple as that. If montreal believes Guhle is their future 1LD, good for them.

If Montreal thinks the Defensive group of Hutson Reinbacher Harris Xhekaj Mailloux Struble etc aren't actually all that, good for them. They can stop pretending all those pieces are worth gold mines.

If Montreal doesn't view holtz that highly, good for them. They can stop sending pitiful ACGM offers for him then.

And I took the bias out of it and the truth comes out.

Rossi as a comp for Holtz (holtz has produced= or better every step of the way up and has more upside imo)

Sillinger as a comp for Dach at the time of trade. Very similar production/play, which is bad, but straight into the NHL right out of the draft and strong upside

Except Rossi is way better than Holtz. Rossi plays a more important position, has more pts, better defensively, on the pp. Like I have said, only thing going for Holtz is his 5v5 production and he gets beat there too by Rossi.

Sillinger has a potential of a 2c. Dach had a potential of a 1c. Sillinger went to the ahl. Dach didn’t. Dach has a better leadership. Dach was a better draft pick

In value, Rossi is far above everyone else. I would rank them like that :

Rossi


Guhle

Dach (pre trade)
Holtz



Sillinger

Not really.

Pre trade dach was also very bad defensively, he was very bad at driving play offensively, he had missed major time with a wrist injury. He was unable to produce alongside alex debrincat and Patrick kane.

It is revisionist history at it's finest. Dach was a legitimately bad player in almost every aspect pre trade. His draft pedigree, potential, and size were among the few things he had going for him.

Caufields defensive numbers are horrific.

How can Caufields floor be 30 goals and 65 points when he’s never hit either of those numbers?

Again there’s the bias. Holtz has the 5v5 production (ahead of Caufield in that regard). With more minutes that goes up. Caufield gets 4 minutes a night on the PP1.

Some stats, like goal against per 60, are pretty good.

Caufield is currently on pace for 28 goals and 65 pts on a weak year, it’s almost like you didn’t read…

Again, your only argument is 5v5, but Holtz isn’t Elite in that category…

Holtz has had better production at every level on the way up than Rossi. His analytics are also better than Rossi’s.

Rossi plays 46th%ile competition with 84th%ile teammates.

Overall 16% ev offense, 33%ev defense, 5th%ile PP (Jfresh cards are not the be all end all but you did quite them for Guhle)

Holtz 33% offense, 30% defense, 16% PP. He plays weaker comp with weaker help.
Holtz

I love how you admitted that even despite your bias Holtz and Guhle are in the same area.

And so with Montreal selling from their surplus of dmen to fill a desperate need of 5v5 scoring. Holtz+3rd for Guhle makes sense. Thank you

Holtz is elite 5v5. He's top 20 in the NHL in 5v5 goal scoring and top 30 in 5v5 points scoring at 21.

Rossi has more pts, 5v5 pts, is better defensively, has a higher potential, is liked by his coach, etc.

And wow, you really can’t read lol. If you look at what I said, Guhle is a tier above Holtz lol.

He is almost as good as Faber defensively, and god knows how Faber is awesome…

Also, we have a surplus second pairing D. Guhle is currently our only sure top pairing option. It would be dumb to move him for a bad defensively forward who is only good at 5v5…

Holtz is probably worth a late first, early second and a third, not that much more

Tf are you on? He is t-47th in 5v5 goals and t-76 in 5v5 pts

Rossi has 3 extra assists in 175 minutes 5v5. So holtz is more productive there
He has 1 more assist in 50 extra minutes 5v4 (with actual PP1 time mixed in which is more beneficial than PP2 time). So again edge to holtz

Rossi isn't anything excellent defensively, I vehemently disagree with saying he has more potential.

Again the main value edge Rossi has is the fact that he's a center. But you're lying if you say they aren't very similar players.

They came in 2 picks apart, and have had virtually identical production all the way up

per 60 stats.

He's T-410th in 5v5 ice time.

There are 32 NHL teams. He gets on average the 12-13thth most ice time. He on average would rank 3rd in points and 2nd in goals on the average team.

Legitimately think about that

That’s assuming Holtz would keep his production if he was playing higher…

Also, the fact that he is stuck on fourth line says a lot about how the coach like him. Either he has some attitude issue, or he isn’t as good as you think.

Rossi isn’t excellent defensively, but he is at least better than Holtz and some other guys. He also has more potential, it was the reason he was taken so high despite his height. Usually, small players drop lower.

That’s assuming he will continue scoring at this rate with higher play time, wich is very unlikely. He would most likely have like 5 pts more…

Or the coach is a moron.

"The reason he was taken so high". He went 2 picks AFTER holtz who was also a potential based pick. Like cmon this isn't even good faith arguing

5 points more (assuming 3 goals 2 assists) would put him 14th in the entire NHL in 5v5 goals, and 38th in the entire NHL in 5v5 points. So elite

Wasn’t Ruff in the run fir Jack Adams last year. He sees the pts, he sees the play, but he also sees something we don’t know. Bad attitude or something else

Rossi would’ve been top 5 if he was 6 feet tall. You completly missed the point. And Holtz was suppose to be a safer pick for second line forward

True, but there is surely a reason why he doesn’t get more ice time. And he would still lack defensive and pp skills

Andrew Brunette was the reason for the success last year and everyone knew it. Led Florida to the pres trophy, brought us to the playoffs, and has a very weak Nashville roster in the thick of the playoff race despite Saros struggling (compared to his previous self).

And brunette was a massive holtz supporter.

Him “lacking PP skills” seems unfounded. We haven’t seen him get an opportunity on a PP1 or even a PP2 with continuity because of all the injuries.

But Ruff was still the head coach, and he is pretty good. He certainly knows more about Holtz than you and me. There’s a reason he doesn’t play more

With the injuries, he should have got a chance on pp1. Clearly, he didn’t earned it. He has less pts than Newhook in more ice time

With the injuries, he should have got a chance on pp1. Clearly, he didn’t earned it. He has less pts than Newhook in more ice time