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Which GMs Need to be Fired?

Dec. 6, 2017 at 5:06 p.m.
#51
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Quoting: tadhockey


We can use that list later, but I'm talking BIGGEST (i.e. involving the biggest players and major pieces, either traded away, traded for, signed, extended, or lost to free agency. Exclude draft picks.


1. Subban for Weber
2. Drouin for Sergechev
3. Signed Radulov
4. Weise for Danault
5. Petry for a 2nd?


Petry for a 2nd and a 5th. Still a win.

I see 3-2-0 but I'm sure you see it as 3-1-1. Again, it's not bad, but when your top two moves have been your worst, and your number three move was only around for one year, there need to be questions.
Dec. 6, 2017 at 5:08 p.m.
#52
WentWughes
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Quoting: tadhockey
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS


If that was the rapsheet of any other gm in the league, they would be praised.

2010-2011: 103 Points, 2nd in the Atlantic, Lost CF to Bruins
2011-2012: 84 Points, 3rd in the Division, Did not Qualify
2012-2013: 40 Points, 4th in the Division, Did not Qualify
2013-2014: 101 Points, 2nd in the Division, Lost FR to Montreal
2014-2015: 108 points, 2nd in the Division, Lost SC to Chicago
2015-2016: 97 Points, 2nd in the Division, Lost CF to Pittsburgh
2016-2017: 94 Points, 5th in the Division, Did not Qualify

So according to your logic Yzerman should be fired because his team is trending down the last 3 years?


I see a Stanley Cup Final appearance on there, and unlike the year Montreal was injured, the bottom didn't fall out on Tampa: in fact, in most years, they would have easily qualified for the playoffs. They just happened to have 94 points in the one year 95 was needed.

Also, if you read the full post, you would have noticed that I don't think Bergevin should be fired yet.


Bergevin shouldn't even be considered to being fired. Its just the media and everything else in Montreal that puts the microscope on him. Same thing happens in Toronto. His drafting has been good, his team does quite well despite his lack of high end draft picks, hes always making improvements without touching the future of the team.
Dec. 6, 2017 at 5:12 p.m.
#53
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Quoting: tadhockey


Petry for a 2nd and a 5th. Still a win.

I see 3-2-0 but I'm sure you see it as 3-1-1. Again, it's not bad, but when your top two moves have been your worst, and your number three move was only around for one year, there need to be questions.


Despite these "controversial trades" the team remains competitive. There is many GMs who should be fired. To name a few

1. Jason Botterill
2. John Chayka
3. Peter Chirrelli
4. Pierre Dorion
5. Ron Hextall

Do i think all of these guys should be fired? no but IMO they would all be considered before Bergevin. In a matter of a fact, I will make a list and rank the best GMS from 1-30
Dec. 6, 2017 at 5:28 p.m.
#54
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David Poile (Nashville)
Steve Yzerman (Tampa)
Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh)
Kevin Cheveldayoff (Winnipeg)
Ron Francis (Carolina)
Rob Blake (LA)
Don Sweeney (Boston)
Stan Bowman (Chicago)

Chuck Fletcher (Minnesota)
Jarmo Kekalainen (Columbus)
Ray Shero (New Jersey)
Lou Lamorello (Toronto)
Doug Armstrong (St.Louis)
Dale Tallon (Florida)
Jeff Gorton (New York Rangers)
Marc Bergevin (Montreal)
Doug Wilson (San Jose Sharks)
Brian Maclellan (Washing Capitals)
Jim Nill (Dallas Stars)
George Mcphee (Vegas)
Joe Sakic (Colorado)
Brad Treliving (Calgary
Bob Murray (Anaheim)
Garth Snow (New York Islanders)
Pierre Dorion (Ottawa)
Jason Botterill (Buffalo)
Jim Benning (Vancouver)
Ron Hextall (Philidelphia)
John Chayka (Arizona)
Ken Holland (Detroit)
Peter Chiarelli (Edmonton)

This is a rough list and GMs can move up and down a couple positions. but its IMO the "list"
Dec. 6, 2017 at 7:36 p.m.
#55
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
David Poile (Nashville)
Steve Yzerman (Tampa)
Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh)
Kevin Cheveldayoff (Winnipeg)
Ron Francis (Carolina)
Rob Blake (LA)
Don Sweeney (Boston)
Stan Bowman (Chicago)

Chuck Fletcher (Minnesota)
Jarmo Kekalainen (Columbus)
Ray Shero (New Jersey)
Lou Lamorello (Toronto)
Doug Armstrong (St.Louis)
Dale Tallon (Florida)
Jeff Gorton (New York Rangers)
Marc Bergevin (Montreal)
Doug Wilson (San Jose Sharks)
Brian Maclellan (Washing Capitals)
Jim Nill (Dallas Stars)
George Mcphee (Vegas)
Joe Sakic (Colorado)
Brad Treliving (Calgary
Bob Murray (Anaheim)
Garth Snow (New York Islanders)
Pierre Dorion (Ottawa)
Jason Botterill (Buffalo)
Jim Benning (Vancouver)
Ron Hextall (Philidelphia)
John Chayka (Arizona)
Ken Holland (Detroit)
Peter Chiarelli (Edmonton)

This is a rough list and GMs can move up and down a couple positions. but its IMO the "list"


So you really think that Botterill should be fired already? He hasn't had any time to make this team his own. The only things that he's done are drafting Mittelstadt, making the trade with Minnesota, and locking up Eichel. I'm not sure what you think he's done that would call for his head. What has Chayka done to deserve being fired? He made some terrific moves at the draft, getting Keller and Chychrun. Joseph looks like a solid pick at 23 as well. He did a fantastic job of making his defense core strong, bringing in Hjalmarsson, Demers for Murphy, Dauphin and McGinn, and signing Goligoski. He also got Stepan to hold the fort as a 1C, and he's looked very good to this point.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 6:05 a.m.
#56
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Quoting: krakowitz
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
David Poile (Nashville)
Steve Yzerman (Tampa)
Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh)
Kevin Cheveldayoff (Winnipeg)
Ron Francis (Carolina)
Rob Blake (LA)
Don Sweeney (Boston)
Stan Bowman (Chicago)

Chuck Fletcher (Minnesota)
Jarmo Kekalainen (Columbus)
Ray Shero (New Jersey)
Lou Lamorello (Toronto)
Doug Armstrong (St.Louis)
Dale Tallon (Florida)
Jeff Gorton (New York Rangers)
Marc Bergevin (Montreal)
Doug Wilson (San Jose Sharks)
Brian Maclellan (Washing Capitals)
Jim Nill (Dallas Stars)
George Mcphee (Vegas)
Joe Sakic (Colorado)
Brad Treliving (Calgary
Bob Murray (Anaheim)
Garth Snow (New York Islanders)
Pierre Dorion (Ottawa)
Jason Botterill (Buffalo)
Jim Benning (Vancouver)
Ron Hextall (Philidelphia)
John Chayka (Arizona)
Ken Holland (Detroit)
Peter Chiarelli (Edmonton)

This is a rough list and GMs can move up and down a couple positions. but its IMO the "list"


So you really think that Botterill should be fired already? He hasn't had any time to make this team his own. The only things that he's done are drafting Mittelstadt, making the trade with Minnesota, and locking up Eichel. I'm not sure what you think he's done that would call for his head. What has Chayka done to deserve being fired? He made some terrific moves at the draft, getting Keller and Chychrun. Joseph looks like a solid pick at 23 as well. He did a fantastic job of making his defense core strong, bringing in Hjalmarsson, Demers for Murphy, Dauphin and McGinn, and signing Goligoski. He also got Stepan to hold the fort as a 1C, and he's looked very good to this point.


Botterill is a recent hire so you cant really put him high because his job isnt secure. I would say this list is more about security and less about whos better than who. Chaykas team didnt win in regulation in the first 20 games and is still dead last in the league despite trading Futures for now (Stepan, Hjarmarsson). Chances are Ekman-Larsson is going to walk (unless hes traded). Botterill traded Tyler Ennis and Marcus Foligno for Scandella who hasnt really done anything. Beaulieu is the same Pilon he was at Montreal, nothing he has done has really improved his team, its only been a 6 months so its not like hes going to be fired, but its not like hes a good GM (yet atleast). Eichel got signed for 10m when he really didnt deserve it. All of those big signings for Chayka yet his team still sucks, Goligoski is the equivalent of Montreal signing Alzner. Long term and not looking good thus far.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 7:08 a.m.
#57
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Quoting: krakowitz


So you really think that Botterill should be fired already? He hasn't had any time to make this team his own. The only things that he's done are drafting Mittelstadt, making the trade with Minnesota, and locking up Eichel. I'm not sure what you think he's done that would call for his head. What has Chayka done to deserve being fired? He made some terrific moves at the draft, getting Keller and Chychrun. Joseph looks like a solid pick at 23 as well. He did a fantastic job of making his defense core strong, bringing in Hjalmarsson, Demers for Murphy, Dauphin and McGinn, and signing Goligoski. He also got Stepan to hold the fort as a 1C, and he's looked very good to this point.


Botterill is a recent hire so you cant really put him high because his job isnt secure. I would say this list is more about security and less about whos better than who. Chaykas team didnt win in regulation in the first 20 games and is still dead last in the league despite trading Futures for now (Stepan, Hjarmarsson). Chances are Ekman-Larsson is going to walk (unless hes traded). Botterill traded Tyler Ennis and Marcus Foligno for Scandella who hasnt really done anything. Beaulieu is the same Pilon he was at Montreal, nothing he has done has really improved his team, its only been a 6 months so its not like hes going to be fired, but its not like hes a good GM (yet atleast). Eichel got signed for 10m when he really didnt deserve it. All of those big signings for Chayka yet his team still sucks, Goligoski is the equivalent of Montreal signing Alzner. Long term and not looking good thus far.

*Emphasis mine

Um......no?

Karl Alzner 2014-2016 season averages (with WSH): 82GP, 4G, 14.3A, 17.3P, 76SOG, 172 Shots Attempts (44.2% on target), 20:12 TOI, 48.5% 5v5 Corsi, -3.8% 5v5 Corsi Rel (ranked about 17th/22 among qualifying players on his team with 20+ games played)
Karl Alzner 2017 stat line (with MTL): 29GP, 0G, 4A, 4P, 21SOG, 57 Shot Attempts (36.8% on target), 20:37 TOI, 49.8% 5v5 Corsi, -2% 5v5 Corsi Rel (ranked about 15th/19 among qualified skaters)

Alex Goligoski 2014-2017 (with DAL, AZ for 2016-17): 81.7GP, 5G, 30.7A, 35.7P, 120.3 SOG, 271.7 Shot Attempts (44.3% on target), 23:39 TOI, 50.8% 5v5 Corsi, 1.4% 5v5 Corsi Rel (ranked about 9th/23 among qualifying skaters)
Alex Goligoski 2017 stat line: 30GP, 3G, 10A, 13P, 42SOG, 104 Shot Attempts (40.4% on target), 23:17TOI, 46.1 5v5 Corsi, -2.5% Corsi Rel (ranked about 14th/18th)

Karl Alzner is 29 and signed through the 2022 season with a $4.625mil Cap Hit. Alex Goligoski is 32 and signed through the 2021 season on ~$5.5mil Cap Hit.

I see a much better player playing tougher minutes on a worse team in Alex Goligoski. He's definitely taken somewhat of a downturn (at least possession wise, his true scoring numbers are actually up) this year, but there's no reason to think he's going to be a long-term negative player, especially with a decrease in ice time as the Coyotes' defense matures.

There's no excuse for Alzner's numbers. He has great teammates and has never had good numbers.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 11:15 a.m.
#58
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Quoting: krakowitz


So you really think that Botterill should be fired already? He hasn't had any time to make this team his own. The only things that he's done are drafting Mittelstadt, making the trade with Minnesota, and locking up Eichel. I'm not sure what you think he's done that would call for his head. What has Chayka done to deserve being fired? He made some terrific moves at the draft, getting Keller and Chychrun. Joseph looks like a solid pick at 23 as well. He did a fantastic job of making his defense core strong, bringing in Hjalmarsson, Demers for Murphy, Dauphin and McGinn, and signing Goligoski. He also got Stepan to hold the fort as a 1C, and he's looked very good to this point.


Botterill is a recent hire so you cant really put him high because his job isnt secure. I would say this list is more about security and less about whos better than who. Chaykas team didnt win in regulation in the first 20 games and is still dead last in the league despite trading Futures for now (Stepan, Hjarmarsson). Chances are Ekman-Larsson is going to walk (unless hes traded). Botterill traded Tyler Ennis and Marcus Foligno for Scandella who hasnt really done anything. Beaulieu is the same Pilon he was at Montreal, nothing he has done has really improved his team, its only been a 6 months so its not like hes going to be fired, but its not like hes a good GM (yet atleast). Eichel got signed for 10m when he really didnt deserve it. All of those big signings for Chayka yet his team still sucks, Goligoski is the equivalent of Montreal signing Alzner. Long term and not looking good thus far.


How much do you actually watch the Sabres to say that Scandella and Beaulieu haven't done anything? How much do you watch the Coyotes to say that Goligoski hasn't looked good? You can't blame Chayka for the team not performing, because on paper, that team is much better than they are performing.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 11:30 a.m.
#59
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS


Despite these "controversial trades" the team remains competitive. There is many GMs who should be fired. To name a few

1. Jason Botterill
2. John Chayka
3. Peter Chirrelli
4. Pierre Dorion
5. Ron Hextall

Do i think all of these guys should be fired? no but IMO they would all be considered before Bergevin. In a matter of a fact, I will make a list and rank the best GMS from 1-30


I cannot speak for the others not bolded, but I would like to address some things:

First, Arizona should not even consider firing John Chayka. People can say "oh, the team is playing poorly" or "oh, he puts too much into advanced analytics." It is necessary to endure pain before progress. Take Sam Hinkie for example. He shouldn't have been fired because the team he assembled had only 10 wins for the entire year. He stockpiled assets which are turning into one of the best young cores in the NBA. It doesn't make any sense to come in with the vision of "rebuild and stockpile" and then have that GM to that, and then want to fire them.

Secondly, I don't know why anyone would dream of firing Ron Hextall. Not only has he strategically positioned us to not be in cap hell, he has also turning a farm system, in case you didn't know it was in the bottom 5 of the league, and has turned it into the best in 3 years. He has yet to miss on a first round pick and his mid round picks have been absolutely amazing. Here are some of the top prospects in the farm system, directly drafted by Hextall:

German Rubstov (1st)
Oskar Lindblom (5th)
Carter Hart (1st)
Felix Sandstrom (3rd)
Maxim Sushko (4th)
Mikhail Yorobyov (4th)
Isaac Ratcliffe (2nd)
Olle Lycksell (6th)
Wade Allison (2nd)
Philippe Myers (UNDRAFTED)

There is zero *Mark Baum's voice* justification for firing Hextall.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4KrHwvtxrc
Dec. 7, 2017 at 8:00 p.m.
#60
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS


Despite these "controversial trades" the team remains competitive. There is many GMs who should be fired. To name a few

1. Jason Botterill
2. John Chayka
3. Peter Chirrelli
4. Pierre Dorion
5. Ron Hextall

Do i think all of these guys should be fired? no but IMO they would all be considered before Bergevin. In a matter of a fact, I will make a list and rank the best GMS from 1-30


I cannot speak for the others not bolded, but I would like to address some things:

First, Arizona should not even consider firing John Chayka. People can say "oh, the team is playing poorly" or "oh, he puts too much into advanced analytics." It is necessary to endure pain before progress. Take Sam Hinkie for example. He shouldn't have been fired because the team he assembled had only 10 wins for the entire year. He stockpiled assets which are turning into one of the best young cores in the NBA. It doesn't make any sense to come in with the vision of "rebuild and stockpile" and then have that GM to that, and then want to fire them.

Secondly, I don't know why anyone would dream of firing Ron Hextall. Not only has he strategically positioned us to not be in cap hell, he has also turning a farm system, in case you didn't know it was in the bottom 5 of the league, and has turned it into the best in 3 years. He has yet to miss on a first round pick and his mid round picks have been absolutely amazing. Here are some of the top prospects in the farm system, directly drafted by Hextall:

German Rubstov (1st)
Oskar Lindblom (5th)
Carter Hart (1st)
Felix Sandstrom (3rd)
Maxim Sushko (4th)
Mikhail Yorobyov (4th)
Isaac Ratcliffe (2nd)
Olle Lycksell (6th)
Wade Allison (2nd)
Philippe Myers (UNDRAFTED)

There is zero *Mark Baum's voice* justification for firing Hextall.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4KrHwvtxrc


KSI, I hate the Flyers. I mean, I hate them. In case you didn't understand the first two, I HATE the Flyers. Almost as much as I hate the Penguins. It's that serious.

But even throughout the hate, you can't say that Hextall hasn't done a good job, especially with the drafting. He found his goalie of the future in Carter Hart, who is, at the very worst, a top 5 goalie prospect in all of hockey. They have a fantastic group of young defensemen that headline the future. Provorov has legitimate Norris potential, and there are a ton of other guys that can be impactful on the backend. Hagg, Sanheim, Myers, just to name a few. They could have their entire top 9 forward group coming up right now. It's an incredibly deep pool of prospects, especially considering they've never had a true rebuilding season. The luck with the lottery helped, but even without it, it's still a great system.

While Arizona was expected to take steps forward this season, by no means is it Chayka's fault. On paper, that team should be on the verge of a playoff birth. But they haven't meshed yet, plus two of their biggest offseason acquisitions (Raanta and Hjalmarsson) have missed significant time already. I would be stunned if the Coyotes finish last in the league even with the start they had, unless injuries continue to hurt them.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 8:47 p.m.
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
David Poile (Nashville)
Steve Yzerman (Tampa)
Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh)
Kevin Cheveldayoff (Winnipeg)
Ron Francis (Carolina)
Rob Blake (LA)
Don Sweeney (Boston)
Stan Bowman (Chicago)

Chuck Fletcher (Minnesota)
Jarmo Kekalainen (Columbus)
Ray Shero (New Jersey)
Lou Lamorello (Toronto)
Doug Armstrong (St.Louis)
Dale Tallon (Florida)
Jeff Gorton (New York Rangers)
Marc Bergevin (Montreal)
Doug Wilson (San Jose Sharks)
Brian Maclellan (Washing Capitals)
Jim Nill (Dallas Stars)
George Mcphee (Vegas)
Joe Sakic (Colorado)
Brad Treliving (Calgary
Bob Murray (Anaheim)
Garth Snow (New York Islanders)
Pierre Dorion (Ottawa)
Jason Botterill (Buffalo)
Jim Benning (Vancouver)
Ron Hextall (Philidelphia)
John Chayka (Arizona)
Ken Holland (Detroit)
Peter Chiarelli (Edmonton)

This is a rough list and GMs can move up and down a couple positions. but its IMO the "list"


A couple more things -- how is Blake in the top tier, when he's only been GM for one offseason? And how on Earth do you have Dale Tallon up there? Dude has made horrible decisions ever since taking over the team again from Rowe.
Dec. 7, 2017 at 9:14 p.m.
#62
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Quoting: krakowitz


A couple more things -- how is Blake in the top tier, when he's only been GM for one offseason? And how on Earth do you have Dale Tallon up there? Dude has made horrible decisions ever since taking over the team again from Rowe.


Like i said, some GMs can move a couple spots. Kings are playing great, thats pretty much what I based Blakes spot on. He was recently just hired so he could move from the top all the way to the bottom in a few short months. Same can be said for Buffalos GM
Dec. 8, 2017 at 12:59 p.m.
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Quoting: krakowitz
It's so much fun to scrutinize general managers and their decision making (as long as it's not your teams' GM), so which ones need to go and why?

The three guys that I can say should go ASAP are Bergevin, Chiarelli and Holland. Bergevin because of the incredibly slow defense he's put together and the mismanagement of a lot of high potential players, Chiarelli because he's basically gotten 1 team-friendly contract in Klefbom (unless you count McDavid), and his horrible trades (Reinhart, Strome, Larsson, etc), and Holland because he offers horrendous contracts and refuses to rebuild a team that desperately needs it.

Anybody else that needs to go?


PS // I would've had Joe Sakic on this list, but then he actually got twice what his reported ask was for Duchene, so he can stay lol.


Brian Maclellan
Dec. 10, 2017 at 2:47 a.m.
#64
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Quoting: krakowitz
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS


Botterill is a recent hire so you cant really put him high because his job isnt secure. I would say this list is more about security and less about whos better than who. Chaykas team didnt win in regulation in the first 20 games and is still dead last in the league despite trading Futures for now (Stepan, Hjarmarsson). Chances are Ekman-Larsson is going to walk (unless hes traded). Botterill traded Tyler Ennis and Marcus Foligno for Scandella who hasnt really done anything. Beaulieu is the same Pilon he was at Montreal, nothing he has done has really improved his team, its only been a 6 months so its not like hes going to be fired, but its not like hes a good GM (yet atleast). Eichel got signed for 10m when he really didnt deserve it. All of those big signings for Chayka yet his team still sucks, Goligoski is the equivalent of Montreal signing Alzner. Long term and not looking good thus far.


How much do you actually watch the Sabres to say that Scandella and Beaulieu haven't done anything? How much do you watch the Coyotes to say that Goligoski hasn't looked good? You can't blame Chayka for the team not performing, because on paper, that team is much better than they are performing.


I follow twitter enough to see what people say about them (journalists).
Dec. 10, 2017 at 2:25 p.m.
#65
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Quoting: PaulDunnill
Quoting: krakowitz
It's so much fun to scrutinize general managers and their decision making (as long as it's not your teams' GM), so which ones need to go and why?

The three guys that I can say should go ASAP are Bergevin, Chiarelli and Holland. Bergevin because of the incredibly slow defense he's put together and the mismanagement of a lot of high potential players, Chiarelli because he's basically gotten 1 team-friendly contract in Klefbom (unless you count McDavid), and his horrible trades (Reinhart, Strome, Larsson, etc), and Holland because he offers horrendous contracts and refuses to rebuild a team that desperately needs it.

Anybody else that needs to go?


PS // I would've had Joe Sakic on this list, but then he actually got twice what his reported ask was for Duchene, so he can stay lol.


Brian Maclellan


I appreciate the attempt of trying to trigger me, Paul, but you've failed.
Dec. 10, 2017 at 2:27 p.m.
#66
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Quoting: krakowitz


How much do you actually watch the Sabres to say that Scandella and Beaulieu haven't done anything? How much do you watch the Coyotes to say that Goligoski hasn't looked good? You can't blame Chayka for the team not performing, because on paper, that team is much better than they are performing.


I follow twitter enough to see what people say about them (journalists).


You should probably make opinions for yourself on players instead of relying on twitter for your information. That just seems silly to me, basically taking whatever someone else says and defending it like this, when you don't really know if it's what you believe.
Blazingbat11 and tad77 liked this.
Dec. 10, 2017 at 3:14 p.m.
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I'd still love to hear any claims as to why Ron Hextall is in the basement for GMs... @KSI
 
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