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Forums/Armchair-GM

Marner is worth less than you think

Created by: BCAPP
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Jan. 23, 2019
Published: Jan. 23, 2019
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Let me start off saying I am both a Leafs fan and love Marner; this is NOT a post knocking Marner at all. What this post is, is pointing out that Marner should not be getting 10+ million, despite what many in the media and around here are saying, mostly along the argument of "he's almost, or even as, good as Matthews, why should he get less?".

Marner is an excellent player, but to determine contract value the best way is to look at comparables.

A few facts:
1) Marner is a non-arbitration eligible RFA.
2) Marner is a winger
3) Marner is primarily a passer (though admittedly as he has increased his shooting of late he is scoring great, but thus far in his career his goals have been good, but it is his total points (and in particular primary assists) that have been exceptional

I would argue are facts
1) Centers get paid more than wingers
2) Goal scoring gets paid more than assists/points

It isn't all that relevant to compare him to UFA winger contracts, because he isn't that. Of note he also isn't arbitration eligible and that will come up in a moment

The highest two RFA winger contracts for non arbitration eligible players in this CBA are Gaudreau and Tarasenko and they're actually excellent comparables. Now one could point out that Kucherov was an RFA for his contract, but he was both arbitration eligible and only had one year left until UFA. At that point he easily could have pulled a Mark Stone and forced a one year contract to get to UFA, so the team really doesn't have the same power over him that the Leafs do over Marner. Even with signing, the majority of his contract are UFA years, so those will be paid higher than RFA years. (the only other RFA winger to get more under a cap based CBA period was Ovechkin, and he was obviously a unique player in his own stratosphere and this was an old CBA about a decade ago)

Now some will argue, "but he drives play" (he does), but so too do Gaudreau and Tarasenko (admittedly Tarasenko is having a poor year, but at the time of his contract he was as excellent as Marner, don't kid yourself the same can happen to Marner in a couple years. I hope it doesn't but the future is hard to predict).

So many will want to say, but Marner has more points than either of them had in their contract year, but there is more scoring this year and when you compare them by years, they are actually great comparables.

Player------------------------------Year before contract-----G------Pts-----Goals ranking for year---------Pts ranking for year
Marner-----------------------------2019---------------------------19----61-------40th----------------------------------9th ****as of today Jan 23rd/19
Marner (prorated to 82)-----2019---------------------------32----104--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gaudreau-------------------------2016---------------------------30-----78-------19th---------------------------------6th
Tarasenko------------------------2015---------------------------37------73------5th-----------------------------------10th

As you can see, while Marner's numbers seem way bigger (32/104 prorated), compared to 30/78 and 37/73, he is actually the 40th highest goal scorer and 9th highest in points, compared to 19th/6th and 5th/10th. It can frankly be argued that the other two were better compared to their peers. As well Marner is playing with the best player of any of the three in Tavares (before you point it out, i agree, he is bringing the best out of Tavares).

Another way to look at the above is controlling for goals per game (which is available here https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html)

Marner's prorated numbers for 82 GP were again 32/104
If we adjust Gaudreau to a full 82 game season at the same goals per game rate for the NHL his numbers change to 35 goals and 91 points
Tarasenko's 44 goals and 87 points.

So Marner 32/104, Gaudreau 35/91 and Tarasenko 44/87 and in regards to ranking in the league Marner 40th/9th, Gaudreau 19th/6th, and Tarasenko 5th/10th.

While Marner does have more points than them, he has less goals (significantly on Tarsenko's part) and relative to the league he places between them in points, and much lower than them in goals, and he does this with two other forwards arguably as good as him on his team while they were indisputably their teams best forward and all three drove play.

So what contracts did they get?

Tarasenko 7.5 mil/year Total cap that year 71.4
Gaudreau 6.75 mil/year Total cap that year 73 mil

If we adjust that for an assumed 83.5 mil (which is slightly higher than the reported best guess 83 mil) we get
Tarasenko 8.78 mil
Gaudreau 7.7 mil

Gaudreau admittedly had to hold out to get his, and likely folded some.

But those are the best comparables for Marner at this point. There will be 4 more comparables who need contracts this year in Tkachuk (just behind in points, just ahead in goals), Aho (behind in points, just ahead in goals), Laine (ahead in goals, way behind in points, having odd season, better in points in past, and quite possibly one of the best goal scorers in the league), and Rantanen (ahead in goals and significantly ahead in points). So they could change the landscape with their contract.

But for now Marner really doesn't deserve above high 8's based on his comparables, I'll be generous and give him 9. He is a winger and not a center, and the best wingers contracts have just not been that high. His camp will most certainly ask for more (apparently they wanted 9 million to sign last summer before his breakout year this year), but he really doesn't have comparables to put him that high.
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
8$11,500,000
8$9,000,000
1$3,500,000
3$2,300,000
1$1,000,000
2$1,000,000
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
1$1,000,000
CREATEDYEARSCAP HIT
Vet, Some
1$800,000
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
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Logo of the SJS
2021
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
2022
Logo of the TOR
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$83,500,000$77,914,032$0$400,000$5,585,968
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,300,000$2,300,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
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$11,500,000$11,500,000
C
UFA - 5
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$6,962,366$6,962,366
RW
UFA - 5
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$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 6
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$9,000,000$9,000,000
RW
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,500,000$4,500,000
C
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,500,000$3,500,000
RW
UFA - 3
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$2,100,000$2,100,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
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$1,000,000$1,000,000
LW, C
UFA - 2
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$775,000$775,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 3
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$4,500,000$4,500,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,000,000$1,000,000
RD
UFA
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$750,000$750,000
LD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333 (Performance Bonus$400,000$400K)
RD
RFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,000,000$1,000,000
G
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
C
UFA - 1
Vet, Some
$800,000$800,000

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Jan. 23, 2019 at 12:06 p.m.
#1
HabsFan
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Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 5,448
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9M is the right fit IMO... how much $$$ Panarin would get? probably 9M as well.
Jan. 23, 2019 at 12:17 p.m.
#2
#LeafsFever
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Clearly a lot of time and effort went into this AGM and, in particular, your description above. For my two cents, I don't think Marner gets $10 million AAV, I think he may be at $9.5, but he won't get into the 10s. A couple things to consider with Marner. He's a local product and that's something the organization she not overlook. As well, a 100-point producer, whether that be goals or assists (and specifically primary assets) is not easy to find, let alone develop properly. Additionally, although he is not necessarily a goal scorer, he clearly makes others around him better and basically runs the power play (for better or worse). Finally, he looks like he's always trying, whether that is getting back defensively, or doing something creative. You can't say that about all the young Leafs. Marner and the Leafs are a great match and at the end of the day, that may cost the Leafs some dough, but I think it's worth it.
Jan. 23, 2019 at 12:27 p.m.
#3
Just Keep Swimming
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Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 9,356
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Why can't I rate this 5 stars.....

Also, thank you for the idea of pro rating the points. I have been working on a mega leafs cap chart for awhile (will finish and release at season end) and that is something I should put into it.
tomkinoo liked this.
Jan. 23, 2019 at 12:40 p.m.
#4
Dubas for Prez
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Joined: Oct. 2018
Posts: 219
Likes: 57
Great AGM. Totally agree, between 8 - 9 AAV is fair for both player and team.

Even if you use an internal comparable in Nylander.

Nylander -> 135PTS - 185GP = 0.73 pts/g
Marner -> 191PTS - 207GP = 0.92 pts/g

If we want the pts per game ratio to million dollar aav - 0.73/ 6.962 = 0.105
0.92/ Marner AAV = 0.105 --- Magic of Algebra --> Marner AVV = 8.76 Mil AAV
Jan. 23, 2019 at 4:26 p.m.
#5
Thread Starter
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I thought I was gonna get pushback. Not so much agreement. Haha. Glad the post is appreciated.
 
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