This team is looking rough tonight, but dude, you've got to stop blaming Dach in every post when he hasn't been anything close to the problem. I agree he's not the fastest skater, but you seem to have the expectation that he has to be the best player on the ice or he's an automatic bust. Our defensemen are even slower, we can't keep possession of the puck to save our lives, and our real killer is the special teams. I'm coming to realize that this team is as terrible as it is because of the coaching, and if I were to guess, I would say that Colliton is gone before Christmas.

I feel the same way about Lou lamorielllo. He likes old and slow players.

Okay, due respect, but I say again, it is absolutely unfair of to bring him up. However, I only bring him up at this point for one reason. That is, Stan serious sold everyone on this guy being the franchise piece that would turn the team around. Yes, he’s 18. Yes, he needs to fill out. Yes, he needs to freakin mature. Yes, he is talented. But, NO, I truly don’t think he will get any faster. All that talent means nothing without it then in this NHL. I am by no means dissing him directly in this post, but games like these literally highlight the clear lack of understanding that this management team has when it comes to drafting in the MODERN NHL!!!!

Sorry Dach, didn’t mean to call you out directly as I always do, but you are the embodiment of how deep this team has sunk in its understanding of creating are winner. You are not the brunt of my anger, you merely highlight a bigger problem. I truly hope you turn out the way Stan thinks you will.

I just hope that in your mind Jack Hughes and Kaapo Kakko aren't turning into NHL players either. I'll admit this game more than most he looked out of place. The game was just to fast for him, but again...that's just how 18 year old kids feel in this league. It's how even #1s feel in this league at times.

Yeah but the real issue is, you can make slight improvements to speed but speed can't be dramatically improved...either have it or you don't. Dach is SLOOOOWWWWW. Maatta is SLOOOOWWWWW, Seabs is SLOOOOWWWW, Smith, De Haan, Strome, Toews, Seabs, all are SLOOWWWWW....this is freaking SLOOOOWWWW team that thinks playing a physical game wins games. What is this the late 90's early 2000's? Stan Bowman is a freaking moron with the team he's built. We just traded our fastest guy too, Perlini; not that he was going to change things but we give up Schmaltz for Strome....slower. We draft Dach over Turcotte....slower. We bring in Maatta because the defense was playing too fast with Seabs....slower. We bring in De Haan, again not known for speed, slower. We traded Kahun who was one of our quicker guys. Stan Bowman doesn't have a clue....Rocky should fire this guy as we head towards another lottery pick.

I’ll honestly defer to ChiHawk’s comments when speaking about Jack Hughes. Dude is super small and at least needs to adapt to the physical side. That I get, that I respect. He can skate and skate for days on end though. Kakko I unfortunately haven’t watched enough of yet to get an accurate idea of where he is at. But I got news for ya, ChiHawk is right, speed doesn’t get drastically better, it’s minimal at best. I’d even ration a guess that Dach will only get slower over the years because he’s so used to being biggest and genuinely thinks that’s enough. So yea, I’m still not overtly criticizing him at the moment, but he is the result of some flawed logic with it comes to the modern nhl. Stan just doesn’t know how to build a winner. He was able to maintain the team dale Tallon created, and then build around a ridiculously good core. But don’t think he was the architect. I really hope he gets the boot before Colliton at this point. I know Jeremy isn’t perfect, but it’s Q last year. What the hell has Stan given him to work with?!

They're likely working on that lottery pick anyway. I think you guys are over rating the speed movement and over reacting to the messiah in year 1. (Which for the record...I don't think Stan sold him as the savior for this 2019/2020 season.) Toews didn't play in the NHL his 1st year either. PIT was the las super fast team to win a cup. WAS, BOS, STL, the main players are still physical. It's also TOR's biggest problem right now too. Yes it's a fast game, but you cant give up size/physicality. Theres nothing wrong with having a Getzlaf, Bergeron, O'Reilly player. That's what you guys are saying. That it would be bad to have those guys going forward into tomorrow's NHL. All those guys were 18 at some point. Yes, Dach needs to go back to the Blades. Yes, he needs to work on his game. Even Conroy was pointing out that Dach just stops skating a lot. That's an easy fix. That's not speed that's hockey IQ...which is just development. He hasn't needed to do these things because he's only played with kids.

I didn't want to go here...because I don't tend to enjoy being the Debbie Downer, but who's the Hawks Other best prospect? If you want to worry about anyone...it's the little guy with zero points and ANOTHER injury. He's supposed to replace Gus, but gets tossed aside when HE'S the one trying to lay the check. You can't give up physicality.

***For the record. I'm not worried about Boqvist's development. This is the correct way to develop young guys. He's going to be fine. Just trying to keep things into perspective.***

Of course Seabs is slow, that's not news to anyone, except maybe Seabs himself. (By the way...forget that NMC, am I right?!?!) Matta and DeHaan are because the D needs help desperately from anywhere. The price for Dmen was pretty high this past off season. Are we talking about Perlini and Kahun??? Kahun has played well for 1 game so far and it just happened to be yesterday. Other than that he hasn't done much. Perlini played well for 1 week all of last year. That's on him for not getting ice time. I don't blame anyone in the Hawks organization for his lack of ice time.

***EDIT*** also. I know this is too long a post, but I want to see more Gilbert! Sorry Seabs.

Exo, before I respond, remember I do love these debates buddy.

Now, the first thing I’ll say is that boqvist development wise will never worry me till he absolutely goes busy. Boqvist was never labeled a game changer for the franchise or a savior for the next 15 years like dach has been. He has zero points on an absolute garbage fire of an AHL team. The only thing I’m worried about is this organization being an embarrassment in two leagues.

Now onto Dach. First things first, dach is definitely a getzlaf style player in most ways. However, he is not a Bergeron or an o’reilly. Both players are marquee two players, FACEOFF geniuses, and clearly work harder than everyone around them. In essence, they make up for their lack of speed with a desire hustle their asses off. Dach ain’t that. So moving forward Mx everyone remember that Dach is definitely not a Bergeron or an O’Reilly, cuz I would love that.

Having said that, yes, I am blatantly saying having a getzlaf in the future NHL is bad. Getzlaf 10 years was a star. Since then, he closed call was against a hawks team in 2015 that showed how speed beats physicality. Go back and watch game six and seven and tell me otherwise. As for STL, they may be slow, but those never stop skating. Just like O’Reilly, slow feet are made up for by active feet. Same can be said of Boston, but I can’t disrespect Boston by saying they’re purely physical, can man that team can move when it counts. As for Washington, I’ve said this before, but man that team is not slow. They some of the fastest bottom six forwards I’ve seen, and the top six are all great save for Ovi.

If I truly believed Dach could become a guy who actually works hard every minute on the ice, I wouldn’t be worried. Alex turcotte is one of the fastest skaters in the draft class and even with that speed, he still always looks to outwork others around him. It doesn’t matter how skilled Dach is, he doesn’t wanna work. That’s hockey IQ? No, that’s just personal drive and determination. If he doesn’t have that, holy **** are we screwed!

Just a reminder, I’m not trying to bash Dach at this point, I’m trying to address the bigger point of Stan losing the freakin plot. This team is apparently physical, but it can’t outwork a single damn team! In case anyone forgets, that’s how physical teams win! Btw, I’ll ask again, since when did Stan lose his pride and start turning the hawks into the blues? This offseason right? The Blackhawks in this era have always been a run and gun team, built on speed and winning In the face of those bigger than them. You want some physicality, sure, stick it on the bottom six, but don’t make it your ****ing mantra on the top six!!! As a fan I’m so disappointed with what this team is trying to become. Another STL? Show some ****ing pride you gutless suits in management. Get rid of Stan and find a way to get this team faster again, cuz let tell you something, it’s always easier to make a team faster than it is to make them work harder. This team doesn’t even have enough pride in itself to work hard anymore. Makes me sick. But thank god we have Kirby Dach, who can stick handle for days, but take weeks just to get down the ice.

I will never ever give in to physical hockey bull****. STL is the anomaly, not the trend. Washington was fast, no matter what people say. Sure they could hit, but damn could they skate. Last time I checked, too, fast teams at least make it to the dance. They get a chance. STL missed the playoffs a year ago. What’s the reason for that? Or the Kings? How bout the ducks? Each of those teams, physical. STL was an anomaly, nothing changed about them whatsoever. They were truly a team of destiny that came together when it counted. So Stan, pull your head out of your ass and stop pretending that this is the answer. You wasted the third OA pick, but now you better make him work, cuz he doesn’t look like a bright future that your screwed up drafting policy promised.

Me too! Cheers!

I simply disagree about Boqvist. He's the guy that FELL to the Hawks. Most rankings had him right with Zadina and I honestly didn't see any (it's been over a year though) that had Quin Hughes or Barret Hayton higher than him. He's supposed to be the next Erik Karlsson. So I just disagree about the lack of hype surrounding Boqvist. I'm not going to ever think otherwise. I remember last year very differently than you I guess, and that's fine.

Yes it is hockey IQ. It's knowing if you skate just 1 or 2 more strides that you open up the ice more for Saad on the breakaway. You get a cleaner pass to Saad too. That's 100% Hockey IQ. That's 0% laziness and 0% speed. When you stop moving your feet you allow the Dmen...who are moving their feet...to catch up. It stops the breakaway.

I know this isn't personal against him. You're putting out too much supporting information (hockey information) and thought behind your remarks that aren't personal. It's about hockey. I get it. The Hawks very much did need to get harder to play against. I still 100% support the DeHaan Trade. That was a steal. I fully support getting Kubalik and Shaw. We can debate on Maata, but I honestly feel like the debate more surrounds that we also got DeHaan. Maatta came 1st and the DeHaan trade may not have been available then. We'll never know.

On Stan though. AND I like this. He assesses the team...says here are our weaknesses...then addresses it. He got himself in serious trouble with the cap...so he thought cap certainty was vital. Traded Panarin for Saad and Hammer for Murphy. We can argue about individual trades, but he saw a problem and didn't sit on his hands. They were bad trades imo, but that misses the point. Last year the hawks were babies. Teams walked all over them. Saw a problem that needed to get fixed....got Carpetner (win), got Shaw (win), got DeHaan (win), got Kubalik (win), and Matta (books out, but as of today I say win). He wanted to get harder to play against...he made moves in that direction.

As for the game itself.
BOS had Accari, Wagner, Backes (STL), Carlo, and Marchand. Marchand doesn't even hit people all that much. BOS had 1876 hits last year.
WAS had Ovi, Wilson, Orlov, Nisk. WAS had 1885.
STL had 1615

So NO, STL was not the most physical team in the league. CHI had 1350 for the record.

AND NO, the fastest most talented teams in the league were TBL...it's why they broke the record for points in the regular season. It's TOR with Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander...their talent is off the charts and in their prime. NEITHER team made any moves in the playoffs. Did you watch the cup finals? I'm not in support of a slug fest, but that's the biggest slug fest of a series I can ever remember. Patrick Sharp called them human missles. That was a bit too much, but if a series goes that way...you need to be able to respond.

***EDIT*** Let's go 1 step further into this year vs last year. Tampa Bay surprisingly had 2,116 hits last year. (I don't see hits within the Playoff stats on Hockey Reference, but that would be nice to see for that series...not that any 1 series tells a story, just would be nice to see.) They broke the single season record for wins/points. This year...not likely to get to that point total milestone, they're on pace for 217 / 11 * 82 = 1,617.

AGAIN, Not suggesting we just go get fighters. We need talent, but we need to be able to stand our own ground.

In all honesty, I definitely don’t remember the hype being that powerful around boqvist. I remember all the talk of his talent, and I was happy to get him, but I also remember being pissed VAN took Hughes the pick before us. Having said that, I believe he could grow into an EK65, but i always think dmen take time, so I never rush on them. Also, the hayton pick still baffles me to this day, but hey, so did kotkaniemi. But boqvist was always gonna need time. I knew that when he was drafted, when it seemed like the team actually had a long term plan. Now I’m not sure. Remember, it’s not like boqvist is 6’4’’ 200 lbs. and playing forward right? Wait, where have I heard that...........

Ahh yes, Kirby and his hockey IQ. Hockey IQ, in my eyes granted, is knowing the lay out of the ice, knowing your teammates, your opponents, your instincts, knowing when to pass or shoot, etc. However, dach not taking an extra stride or two is just plain lazy and not enough effort. Effort is that thing coaches preach at the age of 6 is players want to be nhlers, or maybe not to dach. So no, I don’t think that’s IQ, Dach just lacks personal drive. If you’re being criticized for not taking that extra stride or two, or, “extra effort”, take a seat kid. However, as predicted, the golden boy is with us for the year as announced an hour ago. So I guess that’s a thing..............

Stan bowman. First of all, fixing the defense was clearly needed, and I do like the de haan trade. Granted I hated the maatta trade. But yes, he tried to fix a problem with what he had. However, I will not defend his earlier trades cuz those were atrocious. Even if you were getting cap relief, you still made the team worse, and the end isn’t in sight. So what’s your defense Stan? You’ve lost it stan, just quit and have your pride. I like carpenter and Shaw is.......interesting........to have back. But now your neither physical enough, work hard enough, or have any speed, so what’s the plan? Exo do you know the plan buddy? Cuz I saw one last year, but this year it’s gone.

Finally the game itself. I’d be interested in knowing how many hits the penguins had in 16 and 17 as well, same for the hawks in 2010, 13, and 15. Here’s my problem, each example you gave was done in a certain way. Let me elaborate. As I said before, STL was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone when it came to working hard and slowing teams down and grinding out games. Also, Jesus Murphy how bout Jordan binnington. They are physical but to me still remain the anomaly. Don’t get me wrong, I am paying attention to the hit numbers. But here’s where I go off on my path a little.

Tampa bay, based on their numbers of points and hits, could easily be explained as having over worked themselves in the regular season. Chicago were the kings of doing just enough to make the playoffs and then blowing teams away. With speed btw. Also, look at STL in the past. The biggest knock on them was that their playing style could never sustain in the playoffs, and it didn’t until this year FINALLY. Trend, please meet the anomaly. Also, remember hawks-ducks??? Anyone? Anyone remember kesler saying no team could take that many hits and survive?? Hawks sure did. Anyone remember hawks-bruins?? Anyone remember the hawks speed beating the bruins grinding?

Point is, STL and BOS played a gritty final cuz that’s what each team brought out in one another. One had to win so it’s easy to justify the physical style. However, STL was a goal from elimination against Dallas, and BOS was a ****ty game from Toronto away from being out as well. I get that thats all theoretical. How bout Toronto? Toronto is a good example of what happens when your team lacks balance and has a coach that is stubborn. Toronto doesn’t lose because of a lack of physical (although this season has been tough.....), they lose because they just don’t stick to what they’re good at. They’re fast, stay with that! Penguins did it, you can too!

All I’m saying is it can be done without resorting to STL style team. That team is so boring and they literally put me to sleep, and the hawks have always been speed and excitement. Speed wins championships. And even then, the hawks aren’t physical enough, or work hard enough, and definitely don’t have speed. So are we suppose to be content as fans as long we get hits?! No offense intended, but **** that. Dach sure as **** ain’t gonna hit, at least not meaningfully. He doesn’t work hard enough as is. But hey, no effort gets you to remain in the nhl I guess. Last night watching Nashville play was like watching the hawks from 2010. It was fast, exciting, and always throwing on the pressure! Why can’t that be us Stan? Why do we have to be like the blues? An anomaly? I don’t get this team anymore, and honestly, Stan bowman has actually made me ashamed of this team. I don’t trust dach I probably never will, cuz he will never adapt to modern game in my eyes. But that’s our franchise center, so **** me I guess. He can’t keep up with anybody, but at least he has goal off his hip and a nothing secondary assist cuz so what.

@HatterTParty

Cheers again! Totally fair assessments. We have a different view point on the Hockey IQ and hustle. That's OK too! I see where you're coming from. They definitely teach hustle day 1. You're right about that for sure. I just look at it as, Dach might not even truly know what his 100% is yet. He may never have needed to go all out 100% of the time because he's physically gifted. Being a bigger body can get to a certain point in hockey life without working. Statistically speaking...it's why more hockey players have birthdays in January than December. Also, I can tell you personally that as an 18 year old (ironic) I failed a college course my freshman year, but I never needed to work at academics in high school. I have a masters degree in economics from arguably the best economics school in the world...University of Chicago. I didn't fail because I wasn't smart. (for the record I'd like to think I'm somewhat smart, but don't ask my wife that question!) It's because I'd never faced adversity like that before. I wasn't prepared to study like that and work hard.

As for the game. Again, you have a great memory and I agree with those examples. Kesler specifically. I'll add to that. I can remember talking to family in Nashville talking about hits too. Back then my #1 response was. Yeah fine, you lead in hits, but that's because you can't hit someone when you have the puck. We just have the puck that much more! I don't want to ignore that either. I just think the Hawks back then were head and shoulders more talented than the other teams. Speed is definitely part of that too, but size...not being moved off the puck...is too. Guys like Big Buff (extreme example) were very big, but also very fast. So, it's hard to say which played a bigger role...when the Hawks were both. There are lots of factors that come into play.

Don’t sell yourself short exo, you’re very smart. I can definitely attest to this in these debates. You know your stuff and you stick to them.

Now, one thing you and I can agree on is a great blend of the speed and the hitting. Speed gets you possession, and hitting can get you the dirty work that you need to survive in the playoffs. Essentially, just as you were saying, it’s great to have the big guys who can skate. They are a rarity (god it sucked losing big buff), but they can be found (Tom Wilson). I just love a run and gun offense. I can admit that the penguins, in general, were all speed. However, that didn’t mean they didn’t hit at all. They didn’t go out of their way to hit, because they were all about moving around with speed and passing the puck with speed. However, I still think, game for game, that 2010 hawks team may have been the best cup winner of the salary cap era. They had perfect balance. Speed, toughness (big buff on pronger in the final, magic!), and a refusal to be outworked. So yea, I can definitely agree that hitting is necessary. I just don’t want it to slow us down, like it’s doing now. We just look like a shell of ourselves. We need some skaters to keep possession of the puck when it counts, and we need to work harder.