Forums/Armchair-GM

LAK and SEA Trades

Created by: gpmack95
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 17, 2021
Published: Nov. 17, 2021
Team: 2021-22 Pittsburgh Penguins
Trades
1.
PIT
  1. Athanasiou, Andreas
  2. Määttä, Olli
  3. 2022 3rd round pick (PIT)
LAK
  1. Pettersson, Marcus
  2. 2022 5th round pick (PIT)
2.
PIT
  1. Donskoi, Joonas
  2. Bastian, Nathan
  3. 2023 4th round pick (SEA)
SEA
  1. Zucker, Jason
  2. Aston-Reese, Zach
  3. 2023 7th round pick (PIT)
3.
PIT
  1. Lyubushkin, Ilya
ARI
  1. Ruhwedel, Chad
  2. 2022 4th round pick (PIT)
Buyouts
  • Jack Johnson: $1,166,667
Buried
  • Juuso Riikola: $25,000 ($1,150,000)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2022
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
2023
PIT
PIT
PIT
SEA
PIT
PIT
TOR
2024
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$80,736,256$0$0$763,744
Left WingCenterRight Wing
PIT
Guentzel, Jake
$6,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 3
PIT
Crosby, Sidney
$8,700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 4
PIT
Rust, Bryan
$3,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
LAK
Athanasiou, Andreas
$2,700,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
PIT
Malkin, Evgeni
$9,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 1
PIT
Kapanen, Kasperi
$3,200,000
RW
RFA - 1
PIT
Heinen, Danton
$1,100,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
PIT
Carter, Jeff
$2,636,364
C, RW
UFA - 1
SEA
Donskoi, Joonas
$3,900,000
RW
UFA - 2
PIT
McGinn, Brock
$2,750,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
PIT
Blueger, Teddy
$2,200,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
SEA
Bastian, Nathan
$825,000
RW, C
RFA - 2
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
PIT
Dumoulin, Brian
$4,100,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 2
PIT
Letang, Kris
$7,250,000
RD
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
PIT
Jarry, Tristan
$3,500,000
G
UFA - 2
LAK
Määttä, Olli
$3,333,225
LD
UFA - 1
PIT
Marino, John
$4,400,000
RD
UFA - 6
PIT
DeSmith, Casey
$1,250,000
G
UFA - 1
PIT
Matheson, Michael
$4,875,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 5
ARI
Lyubushkin, Ilya
$1,350,000
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
PIT
Rodrigues, Evan
$1,000,000
RW, C
UFA - 1
PIT
Friedman, Mark
$725,000
RD
RFA - 1
PIT
Boyle, Brian
$750,000
LW, C
UFA - 1

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Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:10 p.m.
#1
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 1,436
Kings decline, Pettersson isn't currently living up to his contract.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:17 p.m.
#2
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec. 2015
Posts: 2,835
Likes: 304
Quoting: tryger
Kings decline, Pettersson isn't currently living up to his contract.


have you not followed the Pens? Hes been their 2nd best dman and playing very good.
Haymaker26 liked this.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:17 p.m.
#3
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 4,674
Likes: 1,994
Interesting trade idea to send to seattle. im not sure they bite but its an interesting swap. Arizona probably values ilya a little higher than chad and a 4th. not saying thats not his value just saying its probably not what arizona is looking to do.

I thought MP was a top 4 dman? what happened?
Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:27 p.m.
#4
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec. 2015
Posts: 2,835
Likes: 304
Quoting: hanson493
Interesting trade idea to send to seattle. im not sure they bite but its an interesting swap. Arizona probably values ilya a little higher than chad and a 4th. not saying thats not his value just saying its probably not what arizona is looking to do.

I thought MP was a top 4 dman? what happened?


He is, but Pens need change.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:29 p.m.
#5
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 4,674
Likes: 1,994
Quoting: gpmack95
He is, but Pens need change.


16 minutes a night? i dont think thats really top 4 quality my man. tools might be there but the mindset for sure isnt. Personally see him as a super overpaid 5/6.
tryger liked this.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 12:29 p.m.
#6
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 1,436
Quoting: gpmack95
have you not followed the Pens? Hes been their 2nd best dman and playing very good.


Yes, where the team is 24th in goals against, the Kings are 3rd in goals against and Pettersson would be the second highest-paid contract after Doughty.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 2:38 p.m.
#7
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: tryger
Kings decline, Pettersson isn't currently living up to his contract.


He's been one of the best defensemen in the league this year lmao.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 2:39 p.m.
#8
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: hanson493
16 minutes a night? i dont think thats really top 4 quality my man. tools might be there but the mindset for sure isnt. Personally see him as a super overpaid 5/6.


Time on ice doesn't mean anything, it's the results that matter, and in the time that he's played (consistently been on the 2nd pair btw), he's been fantastic this year.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 2:40 p.m.
#9
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: gpmack95
He is, but Pens need change.


You don't trade good players just for "change"
Nov. 17, 2021 at 3:05 p.m.
#10
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 1,436
Quoting: Dpellz90
He's been one of the best defensemen in the league this year lmao.


What other "best defensemen" are playing bottom pair minute at ~16 minutes a night? At $4M until 2025, coming off a bad year last season, and being one of the best d-men on a group that is closer to bottom in goals against. I think the Kings will take their chances with 5 dmen under $4M who have shot the team up to 3rd in goals against.
hanson493 liked this.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 3:19 p.m.
#11
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 4,674
Likes: 1,994
Quoting: Dpellz90
Time on ice doesn't mean anything, it's the results that matter, and in the time that he's played (consistently been on the 2nd pair btw), he's been fantastic this year.


57.7% of his time is on the 2nd pair (at 5v5) results matter, yeah but marino is a top 4 dman. all of his time is spent there. mp spends 20+% of his time below it. hes really a 5/6 playing on the 2nd pair. would you consider POJ a 2nd pairing dman? hes got 30 less minutes in that spot than pettersson does (again at 5v5)...
Nov. 17, 2021 at 3:20 p.m.
#12
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: tryger
What other "best defensemen" are playing bottom pair minute at ~16 minutes a night? At $4M until 2025, coming off a bad year last season, and being one of the best d-men on a group that is closer to bottom in goals against. I think the Kings will take their chances with 5 dmen under $4M who have shot the team up to 3rd in goals against.


He's not playing bottom pair, that's just objectively wrong. He wasn't bad last year, that's also wrong. Given what other LHDs have been getting recently, 4M for someone of his quality is a steal. The Pens have been really good at limiting scoring chances, they just haven't been getting the beat goaltending this year. All the xG models have the Pens as a team that's top 10 in the league in xGF%. To say they're bad defensively is just a lie.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 3:22 p.m.
#13
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: hanson493
57.7% of his time is on the 2nd pair (at 5v5) results matter, yeah but marino is a top 4 dman. all of his time is spent there. mp spends 20+% of his time below it. hes really a 5/6 playing on the 2nd pair. would you consider POJ a 2nd pairing dman? hes got 30 less minutes in that spot than pettersson does (again at 5v5)...


None of his results suggest he's a 5/6. He's been consistently on the 2nd pair and he's been great at limiting high-quality scoring chances ever since he came to Pittsburgh.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 3:58 p.m.
#14
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 1,436
Quoting: Dpellz90
He's not playing bottom pair, that's just objectively wrong. He wasn't bad last year, that's also wrong. Given what other LHDs have been getting recently, 4M for someone of his quality is a steal. The Pens have been really good at limiting scoring chances, they just haven't been getting the beat goaltending this year. All the xG models have the Pens as a team that's top 10 in the league in xGF%. To say they're bad defensively is just a lie.


Alright, I'll extend you an olive branch, his advanced stats look good (high PDO/DPS) so far this season, but the minutes (even if it is with Marino) he plays is not regularly that of a top-4 defenseman (specifically one who could play 22 minutes a night at LD, which is the final thing the Kings are looking for and ones better than Mikey Anderson or Tobias Bjornfot who are playing more minutes). Let's say the Pens defense is amazing, and are purely a victim of just goalies letting in soft goals which is making the average look off. The question still goes back, do the Kings already have similar players to Pettersson who they have under contract cheaper than him. I say yes (Mikey Anderson, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot and Alex Edler are all seen as effective defensive players who are on cheaper contracts).

Let's say Petterson is a stud and lives up to all these expectations and is capable of playing 22 minutes a night and just hasn't in his career so far for some reason. Why in the world would the Kings give up an offensive player who is nearing a PPG and a pick, when they are already sound defensively but weak offensively?
Nov. 17, 2021 at 4:27 p.m.
#15
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 4,674
Likes: 1,994
Quoting: Dpellz90
None of his results suggest he's a 5/6. He's been consistently on the 2nd pair and he's been great at limiting high-quality scoring chances ever since he came to Pittsburgh.


Quoting: tryger
Alright, I'll extend you an olive branch, his advanced stats look good (high PDO/DPS) so far this season, but the minutes (even if it is with Marino) he plays is not regularly that of a top-4 defenseman (specifically one who could play 22 minutes a night at LD, which is the final thing the Kings are looking for and ones better than Mikey Anderson or Tobias Bjornfot who are playing more minutes). Let's say the Pens defense is amazing, and are purely a victim of just goalies letting in soft goals which is making the average look off. The question still goes back, do the Kings already have similar players to Pettersson who they have under contract cheaper than him. I say yes (Mikey Anderson, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot and Alex Edler are all seen as effective defensive players who are on cheaper contracts).

Let's say Petterson is a stud and lives up to all these expectations and is capable of playing 22 minutes a night and just hasn't in his career so far for some reason. Why in the world would the Kings give up an offensive player who is nearing a PPG and a pick, when they are already sound defensively but weak offensively?


Dpellz you keep saying hes been consistently getting 2nd pair looks and what im telling you is 57% of the time that is true... minutes do matter. they dont trust MP in certain top 4 dmen situations, i have no idea what those situations really are but if a guy is 5th in minutes on the team he likely isnt your top 4 dman.

For example: Bruins dpairs: forbort-mcavoy, grz-carlo, reilly-clifton. Majority of the time Forbort is playing with mcavoy. but grz also gets time with mcavoy, reilly gets time with carlo. note how close the toi are for forbort, grz, and reilly. That doesnt make forbort a top pairing guy but thats where he is getting his looks. now look at the pens and notice how matheson is playing a solid 3 and a half minutes a night more than petterson. your top 4 dmen are dumo/letang/marino/matheson.
tryger liked this.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 10:50 p.m.
#16
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: hanson493
Dpellz you keep saying hes been consistently getting 2nd pair looks and what im telling you is 57% of the time that is true... minutes do matter. they dont trust MP in certain top 4 dmen situations, i have no idea what those situations really are but if a guy is 5th in minutes on the team he likely isnt your top 4 dman.

For example: Bruins dpairs: forbort-mcavoy, grz-carlo, reilly-clifton. Majority of the time Forbort is playing with mcavoy. but grz also gets time with mcavoy, reilly gets time with carlo. note how close the toi are for forbort, grz, and reilly. That doesnt make forbort a top pairing guy but thats where he is getting his looks. now look at the pens and notice how matheson is playing a solid 3 and a half minutes a night more than petterson. your top 4 dmen are dumo/letang/marino/matheson.


If they didn't trust him to play top 4 minutes, then they wouldn't give him consistent top 4 minutes. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend here. The simple fact of the matter is that Pettersson is a top 4 d-man. End of discussion. That is the objective truth.

Matheson isn't in the top 4. He just isn't. When the lineup is fully healthy (which has been the case for the past few games), the pairs are as follows: Dumoulin-Letang, Pettersson-Marino, Matheson-Ruhwedel/Friedman/Riikola.
Nov. 17, 2021 at 10:55 p.m.
#17
I know more than you
Joined: Feb. 2020
Posts: 770
Likes: 294
Quoting: tryger
Alright, I'll extend you an olive branch, his advanced stats look good (high PDO/DPS) so far this season, but the minutes (even if it is with Marino) he plays is not regularly that of a top-4 defenseman (specifically one who could play 22 minutes a night at LD, which is the final thing the Kings are looking for and ones better than Mikey Anderson or Tobias Bjornfot who are playing more minutes). Let's say the Pens defense is amazing, and are purely a victim of just goalies letting in soft goals which is making the average look off. The question still goes back, do the Kings already have similar players to Pettersson who they have under contract cheaper than him. I say yes (Mikey Anderson, Matt Roy, Tobias Bjornfot and Alex Edler are all seen as effective defensive players who are on cheaper contracts).

Let's say Petterson is a stud and lives up to all these expectations and is capable of playing 22 minutes a night and just hasn't in his career so far for some reason. Why in the world would the Kings give up an offensive player who is nearing a PPG and a pick, when they are already sound defensively but weak offensively?


So you agree that this trade makes no sense for either side then?

The Pens shouldn't give up a reliable top 4 d-man like Pettersson, and the Kings shouldn't give up Athanasiou (who, if we're being honest, is not as great as make him out to be, he's on a 103.5 PDO for the year which will probably regress and is shooting 20% which will definitely regress) and a pick. I have no problems with that.
Nov. 18, 2021 at 11:14 a.m.
#18
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 1,436
Quoting: Dpellz90
So you agree that this trade makes no sense for either side then?

The Pens shouldn't give up a reliable top 4 d-man like Pettersson, and the Kings shouldn't give up Athanasiou (who, if we're being honest, is not as great as make him out to be, he's on a 103.5 PDO for the year which will probably regress and is shooting 20% which will definitely regress) and a pick. I have no problems with that.


I believe we agree on that. The Kings have 4 defensive players (who I'm not sure have fully matured) with similar PDOs and currently have cheaper contracts than Pettersson. The Kings have almost every position at defense for the next 4-5 years except a top LD (which might end up being Clarke if he can switch sides). I would imagine this season or in the off-season the Kings will get their Dustin Brown replacement or their highly coveted top LD.

Kempe, Athanasiou, and Arvidsson severe similar purposes on all three lines: make the Kings faster and score more goals. Aside from that the team depends heavily on their defensive-minded linemates to provide more of a 200-foot game, he's a bargain for what he is, I'm not super keen on signing him long-term unless he can score at a 25-30 goal rate.
Nov. 19, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.
#19
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 4,674
Likes: 1,994
Quoting: Dpellz90
If they didn't trust him to play top 4 minutes, then they wouldn't give him consistent top 4 minutes. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend here. The simple fact of the matter is that Pettersson is a top 4 d-man. End of discussion. That is the objective truth.

Matheson isn't in the top 4. He just isn't. When the lineup is fully healthy (which has been the case for the past few games), the pairs are as follows: Dumoulin-Letang, Pettersson-Marino, Matheson-Ruhwedel/Friedman/Riikola.


so then why does matheson have 6 less minutes with letang than pettersson does with marino? and why does matheson have a full 70 minutes toi differential to pettersson? 40% of mathesons minutes have been on the top pair at 5v5 57.5% of petterssons minutes have been on the 2nd line with marino. what is your definition of consistent? because neither of those percentages to me are "consistent".
 
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