Why pay 3.5 or whatever Armia makes for a fourth liner? Also Suzuki probably isn’t gonna make the jump so will need to address that position. Point stands - canes value players based in on their models and wouldn’t spend any assets for an extremely overpaid fourth liner. You can cap dump him to a rebuilding team.

he plays fourth line but also pk 3rd line or 2nd line when needed. He is versatile big body and can produce well. Things are that you reduce him to a spot in a line up or on the cap hit wich won't help to support or build your team. I could've put Bokk instead of Suzuki or a 775 000$ contract but all you see is your prism of thought

Bokk is a bust. Of course I compare Armia to what his cap hit is. A good player isn’t valuable if he’s extremely overpaid bc it’s detracting from your roster construction. That’s just common sense. A very average or replaceable player like Armia is fine if he’s making 1-1.5m, if he’s making 2-3x that he’s not valuable anymore bc now you’re trading in an improved top 9, a better goaltender, a good top 4 option, etc so you can fit Armia within the cap.

But you only look at your prism I guess? Either way, send Armia to a rebuilding team with a late pick or for FC. That’s the only way he moves.

It was also Excellent under Claude Julien until it wasnt
Ducharme he had issues with for sure but also with Bouchard who had no issues with anyone else(including problem child Poehling who turned things around under Bouchard)
Armia didnt regress he just Started off on IR, came back went on Covid lockdown with Caufield stuck in USA then got back and went on IR .
Then when he finally got back to playing they changed coaches

Armia came off a Playoff where his line was 2nd only to Toffoli,Caufield and Suzuki in the post season more then showing his worth
Issue is like every MTL player that run he got beat up pretty bad and had like 6 weeks for an off season to recover
Gallagher covered all this with Eric Engles when he explained why he never seemed to get things together last year
Citing this season he can prepare and rehab like he has every other season with success

Armia showed his Value during our run and by baby sitting KK from day 1 until he left
KK started out good in the playoffs dont get me wrong but the tougher and more physical it got he became a ghost leading to him being scratched
Given his performance last year for CAR from minutes, faceoff wins and points to the overall role he played

When the going gets Tough , Kotkanemi play drops way way down
I'm not saying he's not an NHLer because that wouldnt be true
I'm saying anything over 3-3.25m is way overpaying for KK just because he's young
You assume he'll get better but the reality is game splits back me up as most of his success comes vs
VAN ,OTT,NJD,CBJ with WSH being the only contending team he's got a high production rate

I watched KK long enough to know he's more of a Martin Hanzal at best then a Jumbo Joe Thornton or Mikko Koivu
He's big but he's soft and unless he learns to take bulk faceoffs will be a burden at his cap hit.
Issue becomes KK Kryptonite is Defensive Zone Faceoffs. Give him NZ or OZ and he's productive
But DZ he's weak winning maybe 3-4/10 draws at best which makes the traditional role of a bottom 6 Center quite impossible for KK

You'll either have to slot him in at 2nd surrounding him with players that will push him personally to his limits.
Or leave him on 4th and eventually see what MTL fans grew tired of in his Attitude

Lehkonen came in the same way as KK and kept him positive attitude and smile right up until we moved him to a Stanley Cup Winner.
When he won the class act thanked his MTL teammates and wished them the same success in finding a cup.
Lehkonen came up in similar situation to KK being used way to early and often but his personal work ethic never allowed a bump in the road to stop him.
KK on the other hand will blame everyone and everything around him taking no personal responsibility alienating his teammates who eventually grow numb to his presence.

CAR couldnt have helped us out more
Players with those type of attitude issues usually get a fraction of what they are worth as such.
The way things were boiling after we scratched him with Hughes coming in like he did
I dont think KK woulda lasted long before destroying his trade value some how

Thank god someone who understands and isnt trying to play Checkers with Chess Pieces.
Given he scores in 70% of his games that's still 50.5% of that production going to 5 v 5 in a bottom 6 role.
Most bottom 6 guys maybe score in 30% of their starts with high end teams having closer to 50.5%
But 70% isnt common for a bottom 6 player anymore then having a 49.5% PP Production rate is

I dont see how that can be a bad thing
I mean sure its more ideal if Hoffman was at 1-2.5m less for sure
That would greatly increase his value giving his production rates
But my point is even at his current Deal Hoffman has value to a team trying to upgrade sending a player back MTL see's value in

Yes... yes it is. Armia is overpaid by about 2 mil. He's a fine big body 4th liner. Those make about 1.5 million. Not 3.4. Plus, Carolina have Staal, Martinook etc to do that, AND have to re-sign or replace both netminders. Armia would be an awful addition without double retention.

Where did KK play again last year ?
Just saying they're both 4th liner's
Only 1 earned his current pay on a SCF run
They other did too but only because he was on a ELC
You cant tell me KK's 4th line role was worth 6.1m

Imagine if you added a real playoff player to the mix
CAR coulda been in a ECF if not a SCF as thats a lot of cap for a 4th line player with 2 playoff points and multiple games under 10 minutes ice time lol
I get you have to pretend given what you gave up but dont smack talk Armia while pretending KK who he literally played beside KK entire career are vastly different in contributions to date.
KK's entire worth is on what he might one day do

6.1m for 2 pts and multiple playoff games under 10m
You want to revist that statement about "detracting from the rosters construction " ?
Even at his lower cap now which is still over paid
You guys went ahead and chose not to use that 6.1m on a playoff player adding a healthy Finals Scratch and overpaying him to do it lol

Okay, let's clear this up here.

Kotkaniemi has ironically found the most success in terms of production against Montreal, which is comical. But KK's play has never dropped away. His xGA and xG+/- actually gets BETTER the more minutes he plays. So defensively, Kotkaniemi just solid. There's no issue with him not being a 60+ point scorer if he can successfully be a focal point on a shutdown line and a good play driver, which he is. He might not ever have the production. But that doesn't mean his value is diminished. Look at Jordan Staal. Jordan Staal makes 6 million dollars a year. He has hands Michelangelo's David is jealous of in terms of how stone they are. The dude can shoot 100000 times and still not score. It can be brutal. However, Staal is a dominant two-way player. He creates chances like no one else in the Metropolitan. His issue is that his hands were not given to him at birth. If Kotkaniemi can do what Staal does, play 1st PK unit, win big faceoffs, be a physical presence, and be a 3C, that contract is amazing. He's got the floor of a 3C undisputedly. He's already a 3C now. What Carolina are doing is looking to see if there is a 2C here. His development was neglected in Montreal because he was rushed into the NHL. He wasn't NHL-ready coming out of the draft. We all know that. Now, he's getting better year after year, he's showing improvement. Maybe not in terms of points and goals, but there is so much more to the game of hockey than just scoring. Is it the most important thing to score? From a term perspective, yeah. From a player perspective? No. Don't give anything away and be solid defensively. If you do your job defensively perfectly, all 18 skaters and 2 goalie every night, you won't lose. Now obviously people make mistakes defensively blah blah blah, but that's all KK needs to do. He doesn't need to be a 60 point guy, and that is what Habs fans tried to paint him as. He's got a high ceiling, but he needs to be developed. He's 22, and he's proven to me as a Hurricanes fan, that watched every game he played this year, that as a center, this kid has a lot to like. I wanted him playing 2C over Trocheck anyway for most of the season because Tro wasn't doing anything at 5 on 5. Now he'll get a shot to have the 2C role. If you're thinking he's going to be a 100 point center and... no. That's what he is. It's now what he will be. His ceiling right now is probably a 70 point centerman. You're going to say "oH bUt He HaSn'T sHoWn AnY pRoOf ThAt He CaN dO tHaT" but that is wrong. He was scoring at a 1.5 ppg rate when playing more than 18 minutes this year. His points per 60 were up there with MacKinnon for most of the year. I'm not saying he's going to be MacKinnon, I'm just saying that there is an offensively talented player in there and we haven't seen that at the NHL level. Montreal just gifted Carolina a Jordan Staal replacement for less than it cost them to get Jordan Staal all those years ago.

Armia is overpaid about 750K and got it for babysitting Kotkanemi from day 1
He was his Personal tour guide, translator and mentor playing a real team role

The minute he was unburdened by Ducharme who split Armia/KK up for the first time
Armia went on a run in the playoffs with Perry and a guy you might remember in Eric Staal.

Why does Armia have value?
Power Forwards his size that skate that fast and creat that many short handed chances
While leading PK unit that was best of all Contenders in the Stanley Cup Playoffs
Well they often have Value to many team because 9/10 guys that size cant skate and those who can cant skate like Armia.

Andersons really the only other big guy who moves that fast i wouldnt call All Star worthy
Most guys that do have that speed and size often end up big name stars

I get CAR only like's overpaying 4th line centers who score career low playoff points for 6.1m
But many teams woulda saw adding Armia as beneficial even if slightly overpaid.
Take of 750 bringing him down to 2.65m and there will be many teams interested especially those in hockey markets.

2 pts in 2 games you're right he's obviously worth 6.1m to beat MTL for the Stanley Cup..... o wait he did well against the DEAD LAST NHL team?
Thanks for proving my point with another example i missed haha

I appreciate that

What’s up tough guy. Sorry about “smack talking” you’re beloved Armia.

6.1 was an overpay for a season of KK. You don’t have to put words in my mouth or tell me what I should or shouldn’t feel. Last year that money could’ve been used better. It was also a long term strategy to get the player that the team likes and believes in, evidenced by the long term deal they gave him.

He played 4C last year bc we were loaded at C. Team knew it was likely 2C would open up next year and he’d get his shot then. When he had to slot up to replace Troch due to injuries or Covid he replaced him without skipping a beat. Small sample size but he was good during it. He also has been a really well liked teammate and has done everything the team has asked him to do as evidenced by players and staff when talking about him. No evidence of poutiness or bad attitude even tho he was forced to play down in the lineup bc of the logjam at C. Maybe there was more to how he was handled as a teenager and young player in MTL by the FO and staff? Narratives can be shaped however you want to so I find your takes on that situation from earlier in the thread pretty funny.

Jury is still out on KK. If he’s surrounded by high end talent, there’s a good shot he’ll succeed at 2C. Worst case his floor is 3C in a year when Staal leaves. His AAV is a bit high for 3C right now but as the cap rises it’ll be a pretty normal cap hit for that position and it’s less than we’re paying for Staal now.

I’d rather take a risk and potentially overpay on a young player who has shown stretches of what he can be and has the type of pedigree than overpay for a career fourth liner because he had a good playoffs as he’s peaking. Wonder how the next few years of that contract plays out for Armia - even if he plays well it’s very likely he’ll be overpaid since you can find players that do what he does for 1.5-2M.

I get it that - you’re a Habs fan so you have to peddle the narrative instead of using facts and logic. KK might not pan out and he’s had an up and down career so far. Some of the blame lies squarely on his shoulders, and at least an equal amount comes from the team that mismanaged him for the first few years - funny enough all of those guys are gone too which probably shows that they weren’t the best suited for their jobs.

if you say so, but hope that someone will help your pk in playoff cuz you guys choke hard time with it last playoffs.

Its not about being tough its about statement of facts period
CAR fans are getting all hot and bothered cause i pointed out they paid KK 6.1m for 2 pts
This isnt an either or situation . This is you guys saying Armia has no value cause he's overpayed for bottom 6
Well thats Ironic by Definition and when confronted with the Irony you melted down

I'd rather have Neither period from a cap POV
But pretending one's better then the other is foolish
KK has term his nightmare is just begining and Armia had a bad year i wont panick until its 2 atleast
Especially given IR , Covid lockdown, IR , New Coach pattern to his year before he finally got to play in that bad year after being key in a SCF run

KK we seen came in strong as a rookie on his personal best career year where he played 16 months straight like a f'n Champ
We saw his determination and skill thinking "who wouldnt draft him top 3" despite being projected atleast 5 spots later minimum
We brought in Armia immediately and he also had Lehkonen and Niemi there as well for support thriving straight out the gate.

Then his career best year ended and reality hit
We saw KK riding the high's but we never seen him outside that
Even on the world stage before that breakout year he wasnt projected top 20 for European picks before the year started.
The more Adversity he faced the more clear it became he wasnt a Franchise Center in the making like we had hoped
He was more or less Lars Eller if we were lucky and he figured out faceoffs or a Radek Faksa if he was going to need the long road to learning Center role and faceoffs in particular.

I honestly 100% believe you take KK out as a Center and put him on LW that he can hit 50+ points regularly
I just dont think he has the Character or Ethic to make it as an NHL Center relied upon to lead
I think too many have too much invested in him to just let him play where i know he'll succeed sadly


No Prejudice needed
No need for me to pretend a Rivalry changes fact based statements
I couldnt care less about CAR , KK , you or this Trade to be perfectly blunt
But i do care about Democratic Debate and dont really find close minded POV help
I dont need to go low with a "I get it your a Cane's fan" as i can actually let my staements stand on Merrit Alone

Anyways i cant make you see logic even though my points can be fact checked and validated.
What i can do is stop talking to someone who needs to resort to Prejudice to belittle Logic in order to cling to his Narrative

TBH i avoid trades with the Canes
They think we're rivals

The dont realize we dont even consider them , let alone consider them rivals
I mean DET,BOS,OTT ,TOR and even COL are rival's who we battle with hard on ice and as fans off ice
Even TBL over the years due to the Sergachev trade has formed a good rivalry but its mostly just TBL's Vasilevsky spanking us (ridiculous numbers like 2 loss's in 20 or something)


But CAR just like that redhead step cousin you met twice at family re-unions but cant really remember his name lol

yeah i did a price retiring using canes as trade landing as we all do and i got back 8 comments on how to use LTIR .... these guys don't know much about sport and brag about anything.

The find another team, because Armia at 3 million isn't worth it. Carolina have Fast at 2 mil and Kase at 1.5 Combined, about the same as Armia. Both do the same job as Armia, don't have the same size aspect, but both are all around better players

You missed the point entirely. It's like you didn't see any of KK's performances this season at all. And yes, a 1 PPG rate against Montreal is his career best against any opponent, and I love that. But you're trying to argue that 4.82 is an overpayment because he played on the 4th line. If that is your entire argument, you need to stop here. He was roughly a half a point a game player, he set new career highs in goals and would have set a new career high in points if it wasn't for a braindead hit from Lars Eller with 3 seconds left of a blowout game in Washington. The fact of the matter is since he left Montreal, he's taken major strides because he's actually been developed. Yes, he was used in a 4th line role because he had a lot to learn because he had been entirely rushed into the NHL. Montreal fans don't seem to get that the neglect of his development up there is why he HAD to be sheltered to start. By the end of the season, Kotkaniemi was playing 15+ minutes a night. Yes, KK gets second unit PP time, but he doesn't kill penalties so most of that was even strength. Proving he's earned that from a Jack Adams winning coach.

That same PK is the 10th best all time in NHL history. Calm down there buddy

for it's history .... NHL History is bigger than canes ... but in playoff you always fall short guys. Armia can be that missing piece so you top 6 don't need to be rushed in pk!

Once again this statement makes 0 sense.

Carolina's PK last year was the 10th best in NHL history. 88% is the 10 best, and for most of the year it was HIGHER. It flirted with being above 90% most of the year, and was even above the 92% mark at one stage. Carolina's PK isn't an issue. If that is your selling point for a player that is overpaid by 2.5 million, you need to go and reevaluate. Keep him. He's a spare part in Raleigh, and a DRASTICALLY overpaid one at that.

I think its a francophone trying to speak English and it isn't coming across as intended.

Sorry i don't speak white fluently !! Still need to relearn «it» !! ... Should have write canes's history, but yeah you are right too but they were 10th on 16 playoffs team too ... where an Armia could help you fetch higher ranking cuz he is a beast. Kase and Fast are cool in season but ghost when it's matter.

Few years ago when Lehky got is 2.300 contract everyone on board who were saying that he was overpaid were wrong now he is doing 4.500. Byron statement saying soo is too (he is too much injured), As for Armia I would have sign him for 3.000, las season he falls short cuz of covid and injury, but all have been said already and we are turning in circle because you guys don't value the play both the money ...

Fast wasn't actually an issue. The PK iself wasn't problematic. How often it was charged with being active was an issue. Staying out of the box was a bigger concern than what happened on it.

Armia would be a fine player at 1.5. At a push, 1.75 or 2 maybe. But I think anything more than that, and there's no reason to make that move. Armia and Fast are very similar. Carolina have players in that role.

Si ça peut aider, mon français allait bien. C'est un peu rouillé, mais s'il y a quelque chose que vous ne savez pas dire en anglais, n'hésitez pas à le dire en français si c'est plus confortable pour vous.