As an outsider, this seems pretty bang on. Except for 1.

I cant understand the love Faulk. Even if we say this year was just a down year, he's 31 years old. Regardless of whether it is a Retool or Rebuild, this seems like exactly the player you'd want to sell high on.

A down year with his career high in points? I mean, I know his defensive play had some bad stretches, but still. I would just suggest watching the Blues play. Faulk has been their most reliable D-man for three seasons running now. And he's a team leader, to boot.

Im specifically referencing his defensive play. I know what he can bring offensively. But the poor defensive play is outpacing it.I know it will never be his strong suit, but any time I watched them play he was terrible in his own end

Heh. It would not be a Blues fan if they didn't have an irrational dislike for an official team goat.

The worst thing you can say about Binnington this season is his play kept us from getting the highest Bedard or Fantilli odds.

1 - You certainly didn't in the post above. But fine.

2 - This is pretty exaggerated, he is not poor defensively. Most of his zones mistakes this season came from weak clearing attempts and such. Krug is the one who was brutal defensively, and if not for Faulk covering his flubs the Blues would have been a lot worse.

I'm also feeling skeptical over your eye test, as Faulk has four assists with a +3 in his last four games against the Sabres, which I'm assuming is those times you've actually watched him play for the Blues.

I actually only saw one sabres blues game this year. I forgot to be more specific in my original post. But I dont think his poor defensive play is exaggerated. I suppose it comes down to what you would say is faulk's responsibility and what isnt. Or if your definition of good defensive play is different from mine.

Also, fwiw, if you dont like the eye test, he was bottom 5 percentile in WAR/ GAR/xGAR in defensive metrics this year.

Heh. When you have all of one game of eye test, it's not much of a test, is it?

And again, all these analytic stats are 1) not individual stats, and thus 2) meaningless without quite a bit of context. And on top of that, these analytic stats are far from comprehensive or accurate because the base stat xG is highly flawed. For instance, in no way do they account for actual volume of defensive stops made. Faulk has been at least top 25 in the NHL in total stops the last three seasons. It also does not account for things like zone exits, and again, until this season Faulk was one tier below elite for zone exits, both quantity and efficiency. Now, one must also factor in that he mostly plays 2nd pairing minutes for degree of difficulty, but still. I can't think of any reason the Blues would want to trade Faulk. He's been excellent in STL, even with the bad stretches of zone turnovers this season (which I promise has annoyed and disappointed Blues fans).

The ones they badly want to move are Leddy and Krug, and for good reason.

I said I only watched one sabres vs blues game, not that I only watched one game. Big difference, details matter.

They are absolutely individual stats, they are isolated impacts, literally means stats derived from the context of 5v5 play to isolate what impact and individual has on the team/game. Micro stats that dont translate to macro are equally problematic though. If he's so good at zone entry denials, for instance, how is he so bad at the other stuff? Warrants further investigation.

1 - Heh. Okay well, you didn't offer that info, so I took the one game thing as your total.

2 - No. They are on ice stats, and these little isolations are just as incomplete as the other stuff. And I didn't say zone entry denials, I said zone exits, which is a considerable part of playing defense, and like accounting for the mistakes that lead to goals is nowhere to be found in any analytic formula.

I actually don't think I've looked at his zone entry denials for this season, so I cannot comment on those numbers. But again, Faulk has been their best or second best D-man at this for three seasons now. How those numbers this season compare to the last two, I cannot say. I can say he is not bad at the other stuff.

We'll never see eye to eye on the analytics stuff and I dont care enough about the blues let alone faulk to go 10 rounds on it so agree to disagree. hopefully you are right and he can be great for the duration of his deal.

1 - Fair enough.

2 - I said no such thing, dude.

I didnt say you said that, I just said that as my own separate point/thought lmao

I can say worse you just won't believe it lol

Nah, not necessary. I've heard all the slanted pearl clutching before. Instead, we should talk about something true.

I LIKE Faulk, I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say I LOVE Faulk. I have him in the "open to a trade" tier for a reason. He's certainly not untouchable in my eyes.

With him it's just a matter of who can replace his minutes and his leadership skills. He's stepped up a lot in the last few months. And I'm unsure of what the return for him would be. On the one hand, he's a guy who's been producing like a top pair RHD the last few seasons, he has some playoff experience and like I said before he's been a leader. On the other hand, he has a full-NTC, his underlying numbers aren't good like you said, and the contract length is dicey. If someone is out there willing to give up a decent crop of futures and a veteran role player for him, I probably make that trade.

But it's tough to gauge what the market really is, and if it's sort of underwhelming (a second and a roster player or whatever) then, idk, seems like he's still more valuable here, especially if you move Parayko or Krug or Leddy.

I mean there is no truth to this, this is all subjective analysis. Most of my disdain for him is that he hasn't been an above average goalie for...three seasons now? And is the 6th highest payed goalie in the league. If I wanted a mediocre starter I could go get one for like 3million. Not all his fault, obviously, but it's also not not all his fault.

The other stuff is embarrassing only because he only does it after he's been lit up for a bunch of goals. If he played the heel role when he's actually having a good game it would be cool, but he never does that, it's only after he's shown his ass for half the game that he starts pretending to be a tough guy.

Also he needs to get in a fight. He acts like he wants to get in a fight all the time and then he never does. The one time it looked like he was going to commit to the bit the refs waived him off and that sucked and wasn't on him, but still. The amount of times he's done it he should have been in like at least four fights by now.

Well, yes, when you say you think he sucks or you're embarrassed by his extracurricular exploits let's call them, then yeah, it's totally subjective and I'm not gonna really argue any of that. But when you say he hasn't been above average in three years and he's the 6th highest paid goalie and he only gets into kooky trouble when he's being lit up, those are statements of fact. And unfortunately, they all range from slightly inaccurate (the salary thing) to simply not true (the other two).

So when one has to wade through a bunch of untrue stuff being levied against the one guy who finally backstopped this team to a damn Cup in Conn Smythe-worthy style, it's just weird to discuss. I'm baffled how anyone turns on the guy like that so fast and it's just too Facebook-y to want to engage. We can discuss actual stuff about him all day, and I'm no worship-Binny-whatever-happens sort by any stretch of the imagination. When he's ****, I say he's ****. When he goes postal like a dummy, I say he went postal like a dummy. He has done both more than I care to re-live. But I don't pile on with a bunch of untrue barbs. ESPECIALLY after all that he's had to put up with the last year, which is kinda mind-blowing when you think about it. It's just weird for me. At least be fair, and we can discuss all day.

They're mostly true. I made a mistake on the "three years of below average", it's only been two, but in my defense I just kind of hedged that with a question mark since it was like midnight and I wasn't looking it up.

- Out of active goaltenders, he's tied for 6th highest payed with Markstrom. I guess if you want to count Carey Price we can say 7th, but he's not playing.
- He has been below league average in save percentage for the last two years, and the overall point being that this isn't really a "one off" down season.
- He only does do the "antics" when he's down in a game. I don't know how you argue with that. Doug Armstrong himself said that in his end of the year press conference
"“The NHL, the teams, they perceive that he’s a ‘gain-able’ target. And I’ve told him that you’re gonna have to live with it. You’ve created it. You own it. You enjoy it. You gotta live with it now....it’s not gonna be when the game’s 2-1, it’s gonna be when the game’s 4-1, or he’s having a bad night."

So not sure what you're taking an issue with, if for no other reason than I actively said "I'm not trading him". i said the team feeds off his energy, even if I don't like it. I said multiple times over the last few years I believe that on a team with a good defense he's a league average goaltender. We don't have a good defense, which is not his fault. But even if we did he's being payed more than to be league average. So for me, it's a bad and inefficient contract further compounded by the dumb antics.

And you called him a "Team Goat" like three comments ago so while maybe you don't worship him you obviously still perceive him more positively than you frame in this comment.

I'm gonna try to be as brief as I can here, got a animal illness situation I need to get back to.

1 - Not including Price, he is tied for 7th with Markstrom, and will be again next season. But of course, one should include Price as long as he's getting paid. So 8th highest. Assuming no other goalies sign a higher AAV in the next year. So the gist was true, the actual ranking was not quite there. But it's a good enough point that it doesn't need to be fudged.

2 - Just for starters, sv pct is not the sole and primary decider of such things. Obviously. Secondly, I really don;t get how anyone could suggest, let alone vehemently insist, that he had a "down season" this year in regards to personal performance. That sounds like someone who hasn't watched him, but I know you have. So yeah, I don;t even know what to say to that. Last season was a major down season, you'll never get any argument from me on that. He abandoned his mechanics and got lost in his own head. Welcome to goalies. But it is his only "down season" for personal performance to date. And he ended the season by getting his crap together, closing very strong in the stretch and being the best goalie in the playoffs before getting injured. So suddenly, hasn't been above average in three years really becomes was mostly crap one season. Big difference.

3 - Army is just wrong or full of **** on this, and so is anyone who claims he only does stuff when he's getting shelled.

- Was he getting shelled when Benn came straight up to him and speared him in the man basket for no particular reason at all? No.
- Was he getting shelled when Pettersson jabbed at a covered puck numerous times and Binnington sat on him and everyone clutched their pearls like he stabbed him? No.
- Was he getting shelled when Kadri intentionally put him out for the playoffs last spring? No, he was the hottest goalie in the league, and looking like he was about to take the Blues to up 2-1. But no, we have to be concerned over an empty water bottle thrown in the general direction of Kadri that makes Binnington the psycho villain in this episode. Somehow.

There are others, and of course also some where he definitely acted like a doofus (the San Jose EK thing, the fake stick swing at Kadri in a different game, etc). But then there's even more where folks get in an outrage tizzy when he didn;t do a damn thing wrong. Was he wrong to grab a hold of the goon McDermid to keep him from jumping a teammate from behind? Hell no. Was he whacked out or wrong when Zucker made a Gene Cousineau meal out of barely being touched near the shoulder (which happens every game by most every goalie) to make it seem like he'd been shot in the face, then got up laughing about his little act? Hell no. But gosh, everybody just fell all over their fainting couches on each of these, and it became something to grow a narrative for people like they just started watching hockey in 2015. Dear lord, don;t show them Belfour, Roy or Joseph. They'd require a sanitarium.

So so so much slanted pearl-clutching. It's tiring, especially when it comes from his own supposed fans. For a Blues fan to turn on him like this, when the whole league and media are constantly dragging the guy, often unfairly, it's just messed up. That's why I said something. Criticize what he does all day, fine. Great. I'll join you. All this fluffing of the legend by exaggerating his crimes and ignoring the constant steamroll runs he endures (often without any penalty or proper response from teammates, it must be said), like... what the hell is that, man? He's the one you're supposed to back within reason. And he has not reached outside reason yet. By any stretch.

I feel like you're being blinded by your fandom on this buddy, especially if you think this wasn't a down year. Don't know what else to tell you. He stinks, and nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. Nothing you've said even refutes the things I didn't like. You cite three examples of him targeted by other players, and then cite the Zucker example of him targeting (for lack of a better word) during games when he got lit up. That's the stuff I'm talking about. He can't control what Jamie Benn is going to do. He can control how he acts towards Zucker. Mouthing off to a guy that just made you look like a chump isn't a winners attitude to me. If he had mouthed off to Zucker after he stopped the shot, that would be cool.

Could also say the thing he did against the Sharks in a game he got pulled.
Dallas-Blues 2019 game 2
Him mouthing off to the Kings in a game he got pulled.

As for the save percentage thing, I've got plenty of other stats to throw out too, but I know you don't care about them, so why bother?

I call it how I see it, and that's how I see it. It's not pearl clutching. It's not like I want him off this team tomorrow. It's not like I don't like guys like Roy or Belfour or even Hasek. But I'm not a supposed fan of his. I'm just not a fan of his, full stop. I've said my piece, you can not take it, but that's all it is to me.

Hope your animal gets well.

Overall I'm with you on the tiers but sadly I'd slide Buch down a tier just to see what's out there. Amazing player but he just turned 28 and with 2 yrs left on a great contract he'd be our best bet at landing another rebuilding package; and Army has to stop with the lengthy age 30+ contracts. He should have stopped years ago, they're all immovable and depreciating. Maybe the Caps want to take another run and they move Kuznetsov somewhere to free up space and trade 8oa for Buch?

In that situation I would think you have to jettison one of the defensemen too and be ok hanging around the bottom ten for another year. Cap space for short term opportunities and picks #8, #10 and 2 in the #20s sounds nice to me - I think I can stomach another subpar season if things are starting to move in the right direction.

Dudes, I made a Blues fan poll about the top draft pick...

https://www.capfriendly.com/forums/thread/701667