Top 14 is about a big of a reach to portray value. That could very well be 2 5th place votes from Colorado media. That means nothing.

This is exhausting lol. Fun to think about but Avs decline this one.

Like I've said many times. I wanted them to win the cup last year. It's just standard Leaf delusion that anyone with a Leaf on the front is automatically 10% - 20% better than the same player wearing a different logo.

Unless you are top 5 in votes it doesn't mean anything. Muzzin and Rielly have both been in the ranking for the Norris, Rielly got a lot of votes, Muzzin just a few but it still gives them a "top whatever" in the Norris voting. Getting a handful of 5th place votes doesn't make you the 14th best defenceman. It means a handful of writers thought you were really good while the majority of the rest didn't rank you.

This in no way is meant as a slight against Toews, I like him and think he's definitely very good. Would for sure be the 2nd best defenceman on the Leafs by a huge margin. I'd try to find a way to add him if I could get him as a rental and maybe sign long term next season if it's possible. But I certainly wouldn't trade Nylander for him. Scoring in the playoffs has been TO's problem and Nylander does that. He wants to be in those big moments and he was the leafs best player for long stretches.

This is why conversations are impossible on here. Everyone has a bias on here. All of us, some much more than others, and we all have our negative biases. I really don't like Domi, I think he's a lazy player who only offers some offence but is horrible defensively. But it's pretty clear to me that almost everyone has a strong negative bias against the leafs as well. So even if I am overvaluing my players 10% more than they are worth, if you also overvalue you players by 10% but also have a negative bias of 20% against the leafs, that's a huge gulf. How does one have a conversation with someone on the other end of that? Nylander objectively is a great player, he's 27 and still can take it to bigger level, (his knock is consistency, which is getting better and better). That's massively valuable, if I was a fan of any other team and the possibility of getting a player like that would be exciting. I would expect it would cost a lot but I would want to make it work. You can check out my past acgm's I certainly aren't against trying to make the team better but it needs to make sense. Nylander is a talent that is pretty much impossible to replace without a high end draft pick. Every fan base thinks they have a prospect who could be that good but more than likely, not, 40 goals scoring point a game players are not very common. None of this can be argued it's statistically accurate.

The fact that you, like the consensus on here refuse to acknowledge this, and rationalize arguments that TO is at some huge disadvantage or that Nylander just isn't worth very much. Meier went for a pretty big return at the deadline last year, sure he's a good player but he didn't do much in the playoffs and Nylander was the leafs best player. Insert a litany of used car salesmanship reasons to why that makes sense and then accuse all leaf fans that they overvalue Nylander.

It would be one thing if we just had the same bias towards our respective teams but when you add the negative bias against, it makes it just nonsense.

Sorry I'll take the L here I was thinking of Girard.

This is 100% correct on the philosophical/theoretical part of why these conversations on here suck.

Re Domi tho. He isn't lazy at all, not sure how much you've seen him play. I think he's emotional and in bad spots he plays bad cause hes a heart and soul guy who isn't really headstrong. Thats why many analysts are joking he will pull a David Clarkson and get some stupid suspension cause hes so pumped up to come to Toronto and can't contain it. Similar to Kadri, he'd disappear for months if you remember early in his career when Burke/Wilson would criticize him and when he was too pumped would get suspended.

Domi is a top 30 passer in the league, very elite at passing, average offensively aside from that, doesn't check (despite his repuation), doesn't play defense. He will be like Marchand after the whistle and throw some punches and mess with some guys which is an edge the Leafs need.

He's a decent 2LW with a solid 2C and 2RW and can carry an offensive third line.

I think you bring up some very valid points. I'm not trying to discount a conversation. I'm trying to bring a different perspective and from my point of view...when I answer a question...that you asked...and provide an honest opinion with support as to why I have such opinion...your response is



My argument is dumb???

Let's flip the script a bit. My team is the Blackhawks. Let's talk about that Seth Jones trade. Awful trade. Just awful. Absolutely zero reason to go out and pay (2) 1sts and Boqvist (There's also a swap of #32 and #44 in there for technical purposes) for 1 year of a player and then receive zero benefit because you're going to be the highest bidder once they become a UFA. The Hawks just gave CBJ Jircek, Sillinger, and Boqvist (but I don't mind that last one as much) FOR FREE. Just an awful trade. Notice what I left out. I don't hate Seth Jones. My bias is admittedly that I think he's a solid 2-way Dman. He's on an awful team. He's being asked to do WAY too much, but I don't think he's an AHLer. He's a top Pair RD.

You think Nylander is a really good player. I never said he was bad. I said he's the 2nd best RWer on TOR. Which is factual. He's not better than Marner. I don't even think you'd argue that he is. BUT what your base expectation is...is that another team is going to be willing to be Stan Bowman again and make a god-awful trade. WHY trade away a top prospect, when you have ZERO comfort in getting a reasonable extension done? He's held out before...all signs point to bad things right now...Where exactly does the comfort come in for an acquiring GM? Just pay him as a UFA and keep your assets.

***EDIT*** As a side point. Meier was an RFA. Extremely different than Nylander as a UFA.

I'd say a few things to this:

1. Almost every analytics model Evolving Hockey, The Athletic, etc has Nylander as a $10M+ player. So his ask isn't absurd.
2. The Tkachuk contract is absurd and shouldn't be considered a comparable for anyone. It's like the Draisailt contract, its just a crazy good deal for the team. Nobody is expecting another Hart winner to sign for $8.5M and nobody expects a player like Thachuk to sign for less than $12M if he hit the market today. Its just crazy.
3. Nylander laps Timo Meier in production, as in its not even close, its like if you look at the last 2 years its 167 points for Nylander and Meier has 142points. Thats a preddy significant difference 17% more points, just to oversimplify and prorate that into a contract Meiers $8.88M would become $11.7M for Nylander if you paid $/point.
4. When considering a trade one thing everyone overlooks is the TOI for Nylander. He averaged 18 minutes a game this year in Toronto. 1st line forwards normally get over 20 minutes. If he gets traded and starts playing 20 minutes a night thats an extra 11% of icetime, would take his 87 points up to 97points. So It's very realistic that he could be a 100 point player once traded.
5. Nylander wasn't even on PP1 for the Leafs at the end of last year, again thats more points he would get if played as a 1RW.
6. PLD's career high is 63 points, Nylander got 87 last year, that is 38% more points that the difference between Gustaffson who just signed for $800k and Josi, Petro, Lindholm McAvoy, I know its an extreme example but PLD is nowhere near the same category of player as Nylander. Nylander is an All star 1st line winger and PLD is a 2nd line center. It's like comparing Kesler to Daniel Sedin on the 2011 Canucks. Both are great and highly valued players but one is just gonna get paid WAY more.

My point is that Nylander will get $10M+ if he wants it and there will be at least 10 teams if he became a UFA that would offer it. I would not be surprised if he actually hit the market and got $12M+. Someone will see him as a guy who can come in and score 40-50 goals and put up 100 points.

He has been described by Sportsnet as "at times catastrophically bad defensively" and that was in regards to last year in Chicago. That doesn't win you the cup.

This argument falls apart with PLD.

Why didn't the Kings just wait a year? If he goes to arbitration he gets a 1 year deal. He's a UFA next summer.
Why aren't teams waiting for Debrincat to become a UFA next year? they have already filed for arbitration its 100% guaranteed that he will be a UFA next year, teams are still wanting to trade for him.

I said he doesn't defend. That isn't laziness, some players just are offensive minded and waiting to break forward constantly. Kessel did it for years and Leafs fans hated him for it, then he won three cups.

I don't think Treliving cares about defense. Bertuzzi is also horrible defensively as is Klingberg. I think the strategy is score and hit. Follow what Vegas did.

So you bring up good points too. We're on opposite sides of this conversation. You're bringing up points as to why he's owed more money and I'm bringing up points as to why he's not. Neither of us are bringing up points to support the other person's case...So we're both one sided in this conversation. Just like a negotiation would be. You're basically Nylander's Agent and I'm Treliving.

You think Nylander COULD be a 100 point player. Ok, go do that elsewhere. He's not a 100 point player here, he's never been a 90 point player here, and he's not going to be our #1 RW. In fact, what is consistent about Nylander is that every year we need to bench him or flip him up to Matthews so he can get jump started. That's not $10M player money. BUT what's missing in all this is...We don't have the cap space to pay you $10M. So you can trust me that I'm asking Matthews/Marner to take discounts too in order for US ALL to win...or he can leave.

If it goes up to $9.3-$9.5...that's negotiating. You have to meet somewhere in the middle, BUT hockey doesn't revolve around points. Everything you're talking about up top there...it's just points. Points per minute, points over the last 2 years, points on a #1 Line. If you want $10M and you to talk purely on points...then you need to compare yourself to other more one dimensional type players. Patrick Kane, Gaudreau, Kucherov, those types of players. Is coming off a 115 point season better than 87 points? $9.75M How about Kucherov? 3rd in the NHL in points in 2018...$9.5M. Is Nylander 3rd in points in the NHL, no he didn't score 114 points. He scored 87.

I guess this is quite fair. I can't explain stupidity. Seth Jones trade was awful and everyone saw it. Now something similar for LAK. I guess there's always a sucker out there willing to make bad trades.

Maybe, but Keefe is a systems coach so it will be interesting to see how it works

You are also assuming that they can get them as UFAs. I genuinely think you can extend Nylander at $10M but if he hits the open market and he's the best UFA (assuming guys like Matthews are resigned) someone could give him $12M+. Apparently CBJ offer sheeted Marner at $13M so once you get to the UFA stage its just crazy. Last player of that stature to get there was Tavares and look at his deal he signed $11M, San Jose offered $13.5M, I think if he signed the summer before with the Islanders its likely around $10M.

Yea, the team seems super disfunctional as it currently stands.

Bertuzzi can't play with Tavares cause they tend to like having the puck in the same areas around the net, not really complementary guys. So you are looking at Bertuzzi-Mathews-Marner which works. Domi-Tavares-Nylander is a defensive nightmare. Not sure its fair to throw Knies with Tavares-Nylander, lots of minutes for a rookie and he'd have to play so responsibly.

Bottom 6 - Domi (offensive/passer), Kampf (pure defense), Lafferty (forchecker), Jarnkrok (complementary player), Reeves (fighter) - none of those guys fit together well. Putting Reeves with Kampf is adding a big liability to a defensive stud same with Domi/Kampf. So if you go with Lafferty, Kampf, Jarnkrok then you have no scoring AGAIN on the third line then what Domi with Reeves?

Same on D

Rielly likely gets Broadie but then McCabe is a big risk physical D, likes taking runs at guys, Klinberg is a big risk Offensive D, they won't go well together. Gio is old, Lili needs Brodie or someoen stable beside him so would timmins.

None of the parts really fit together.

I would have Knies with Willy and JT. Bertuzzi with Matthews and Marner and Domi with Kampf and someone, whether it be Jarnkrok, Lafferty, some Marlie, maybe Robertson. Then Holmberg with Reaves and whoever. Kampf could possibly help Domi's defensive game and does go to the net, Lafferty would make for some pretty good speed on the line as well.

As for the defence, I think there is going to be a trade. Not sure what but maybe Brodie for someone tougher and then you hope you can find an upgrade at the deadline. Right now I don't know who you want with Rielly, Brodie is the best option but he's also the best option for Klingberg. McCabe should be the 3LD. Liljegren and Timmins are you current other 2 RD unless Gio is better than he was in the playoffs, then maybe he gets in there and Brodie plays with Rielly.

this website is for fun. lol.

"The Toronto media" inferiority complex just never ends, it's exhausting.

It's the worst, and what's worse is how many people just jump on the speculation and believe it's the truth. It isn't