genuine question:

how much better is lindholm than bo horvat?

Probably a tad better offensively (Bo lacked some playmaking ability imo) and more sound defensively.

Genuine counter question, how much better is 11th OA than 30th OA?

I love your faith in Vancouver! But, fair point. Though I'd expect most Lindholm buyers to be a late first.

How many teams that should have been tanking for Bedard are trading firsts? Lol

Bo was definitely better defensively and worse offensively but overall very similar.

We are looking at where a team sits at the time of a trade Obviously the Isles ended up with the 16th pick by the end of the year. NYI's record at the time of the trade was 25-22-5 for a pts% of 0.529.

It's faster to count from the bottom up so Anaheim, Columbus, Chicago, San Jose, Montreal, Arizona, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Vancouver, and Ottawa were all .500 or below
Washington - 0.558 (above)
Detroit - 0.521 (below)
Buffalo - 0.571 (above)
Pittsburgh - 0.581 (above)
Nashville - 0.563 (above)
Florida - 0.519 (below)
Calgary - 0.570 (above)

So my memory is a bit off, the Islanders actually traded what was at the time 13th OA by pts%

Is this a typo? There is no way in the world you think Bo Horvat was better defensively. He's horrible defensively

Not sure who falls in that boat this year. Islanders were three points out of a wildcard spot at the time of the trade. Obviously too early to tell and certainly Lindholm will generate a lot of interest.

This is so funny to me because Horvat had this reputation amongst a section of the Canucks fans that he was good defensively. I think probably because he was relied upon to take big defensive zone faceoffs but he was/is not good defensively. Lindholm was a Selke finalist haha.

no way you just unironically used award voting as a way of saying who is better

The analytics have them very close to one another, but Limdholms horrific start this season pushes him behind Horvat for me

Rather than Lindholm I'd rather go after someone like Adam Henrique to play 3c. Hed cost far less and besides Miller is dominating at center.

I assume your next thing will be... no one cares about dom's model it's the dumbest stupidest thing ever.

Being a finalist for the best defensive forward in the league is a bad thing now?

YOU ARE SAYING SOMEONE BEING NOMINATED FOR AN AWARD MEANS THEY ARE GOOD LMFAOOOO

The fact that you are using that unironically is so funny.

This is funny. You see how similar they are, right? This also DOES NOT FACTOR IN 2022-23, where Horvat was signifigantly better. idk how to put in images, but:

Horvat has a signifigantly better RAPM chart (GF/60, xGF/60, CF/60, CA/60, xGF/60) which are 5 of the best stats I like to look at when evaluating a players two way game.

Both are off to underwhelming starts this season but last year, Horvat finished with 1.6 higher GAR than Lindholm and 14.9 higher xGAR over the past two seasons than Lindholm, 13 higher last season alone.

Horvat also has .6 higher xDEF than Lindholm over the past two seasons as well

IDK what model those graphics use but evolving hockey, where I am getting my stats, is by far the most accurate model imo. It uses the most factors and values efficiency and expected performance (isolating results and using projected values) instead of relying more on results, as a forward cannot control how their goalie or linemates do. Of course some stats you showed do that, but not to the same extent as EV's model

Anyways, at least I dont just copy and paste graphics that I cannot understand!

Horvat improved defensively his last year in Vancouver. He was never a defensive forward. I've heard he has continued to play well defensively in New York so far but haven't followed at all tbh.

https://canucksarmy.com/news/bo-horvats-defence-declined-past-three-seasons-getting-better

Not that he was ever bad but he was relied on situations he just wasn't very impactful at. This link is pretty much what Canucks fans saw over the years. An offensive player relied on in defensive situations.

Sure, two approaches. More concerned about the longevity of PDG in a top 6 role. It's not ideal unless he can maintain and truly be Burrows 2.0. I like the bottom 6, especially Hog/Lafferty/Beau and am curious how Blueger slots in. I think Beau gets pushed out but I hope it doesn't mess with the chemistry. Lafferty is playing great at C right now. Other option is Joshua gets bumped and Suter/Blueger/Garland is a line. Though I don't love the idea of that line.

Beauvillier, Hoglander, Garland and perhaps more are very capable of stepping in for PDG should he fall off though.

This is literally data from accumulated after Horvat was traded so covers nearly all of last season.

"you see how similar they are right?"
I see Horvat with a defensive rating at -6.8 trending to -7.1 and Lindholm at plus 1.1 trending to 1.3

I know evolving hockey and it's great. The beauty of the bigger models is it combines more data and compares it to as a percentile to the league.

xGF and all the stats you mentioned are and indirect measure of defensive play and therefore not nearly as accurate as they could be.

"IDK what model those graphics use but evolving hockey, where I am getting my stats, is by far the most accurate model imo." This statement kinda lets me know a lot about you. In the same breath you say you don't know where the model I used gets their stats but that you also have an opinion the evolving hockey has the most accurate model. You don't even know this model so how could have that opinion.

It's mostly based on GSVA (game score value added) youd have to look that up yourself if you are interested.

By no means do I claim to know what goes into all these models but I kinda doubt you do either.

"You don't even know this model so how could have that opinion." correct lol. Ive spent a long time finding the most accurate models which is why i subscribe to EV when there are free stats out there for everyone.

I know what goes into evolving hockey, idk what goes into the screenshots you shared, and quite frankly i could care less what twitter has to say lol. You obviously have no clue what goes into those stats

Stats like "defensive rating"? What does that mean? What does that factor in? How does that relate to corsi, or xGA, or any other stat i mentioned? Thats like saying a player is a 90 overall in franchise mode so they are good lol.

Evolving hockey has an entre page of references on where they get all of their data, formulas, models and more. Your screenshot doesnt so how am i supposed to make an opinion on it? Defensive rating could be even better than EV but I have no way of figuring that out

Dom's model is behind a paywall as well. And has a page describing what goes into his data. There are like 8-12 data sets per category it looks like.

My personal interest wanes at the point of exploring every stat and why its good or maybe not so good. I leave that to the experts and just cross check the different models.

It is funny that you read the infograph I sent and thought they were similar.

You spent all this time looking through different models to find EV which you like the most but now you have no interest in any other models? Dom's is probably the most sited on these boards and youd ont know about it or care haha it's a bit odd.