waaaaay too much for foligno

Maybe...i'd rather risk overpaying on this site than deal with all the yahoos that say it's not enough.

Devils decline. We could get more if we're retaining

Columbus takes that and runs

lol ain't that the truth. Whatever you do don't trade Robertson either... you will be will be crucified.

That said your offer for Foligno is rich. I don't think we need Wood in addition to Foligno. Oleksiak may be a good pickup, but he might also be a product of a good defensive system in Dallas and not necessarily much of an upgrade.

That seems like a very terrible way of doing business.

From who? How many teams do you think are buying? If GM's are going to hold out for major hauls in this climate, they will be left with nothing. There are far more sellers than buyers this year.

Giving up Liljegren is just cutting your foot off next season. He's going to be needed and he'll be able to slowly move up the lineup as Brodie and Holl age, eventually he'll be a top 4. He just doesn't have to be one yet. Give him the time he needs. He's going to be good. Wasting a future top 4 righty on a 7th defenceman is insane.

Also that Columbus trade is nuts. I think a 1st by itself is too much considering the market we are in but if that's what it costs I guess you pull the trigger but anything more is ridiculous.

Agreed...I would think it's one winger and one depth d-man.

Nope. Two things.

a) this is hypothetical and, on this site, it's way easier to get a discussion going when showing good faith in the offer than just offering scraps for another team's captain
b) in the real world, it often makes way more sense to overpay a little to get the outcome you want than to waste time haggling over details that, over time, are likely to be insignificant. Which is basically what I do for a living

I disagree but it's more a matter of opinion. I haven't ever felt like Liljegren would be an impact player in the NHL. In my mind, he's someone who's value in a trade is worth more than any possible value he may add as a member of the roster. Of course, only time will tell if that's true or not....just simply my opinion.

So if I can use him in a trade to land another D-man who I know is capable of playing on the back-end, I'm okay with that...but only because I don't see him ever being a top 4 guy. For those that do, then of course it wouldn't make sense.

Overall...I think we need to ask ourselves if the current roster is one of championship caliber pedigree. If it is, the 1st /2nd round picks or the prospects that are still 2+ years away are all fair game if it means adding those 1 or 2 pieces that can push you over the top. And it's a delicate art trying to do so withing a tight cap and without disrupting the current team chemistry.

For me, it's about adding players with character, skill and grit. And, for me, that's best done by finding another Hyman-type player

I really like your approach on all of this. I too feel Liljeren will not be more than a 6th/7th d man. Us Leaf fans over hype prospects a tad but historically...

A 33 year old with 9 career playoff goals in 50+ games is worth 2 first rounders and a forward who has as many points as him this season. Why? Because it's easier to just overpay so no one complains. Do you work for the government?

But you can get someone without moving him? It seems like you want to use big assets for the sake of using them.

It seems to be if he isn't Karlsson he's going to be a 6/7 dman and that is silly. He's got the tools to be a really good two way defender. Responsible in his own end and will chip in with the occasional points. He's more like what Brodie is. Maybe a little better offensively.

I hope you're right. I just don't think you are. It's something neither one of us can claim to be right on as it's simply a projection. Nothing to get bent out of shape over.

Dude...we don't have any idea what CBJ has asked for in return for Foligno. Are you the reason coffee cups need to say "Warning, hot"??

Of course you'd want to pay as little as possible to get a player you want....that's one of those things that should go without saying. I'm just accepting the fact that you need to give to get. And if you want 50% retention...you're gonna need to pay a bit more.

All I was aiming to do was look at the holes the leafs are most likely to want to plug, identifying options for those holes...and showing how you can fit them in without taking much away from your roster. Dubas isn't going to make any dramatic subtractions...that would be the dumb move given how well the team is performing. Kerfoot is the obvious name because of his cap hit and the fact that he's been playing 4th line minutes since Engvall was given the 3C role.

No one's bent out of shape. I just think it's foolish to waste assets when you don't need too. You can get a 6/7 dman for a lot less than Liljegren but sending him out the door because you don't think he's going to he a top 4 defenceman is really just poor asset management.

Negative. Definitely not a government employee. But you're painting yourself as someone who thinks that a 1st round pick holds his value over an infinite number of years...or that all first round picks are of equal value...or that any prospect of the maple leafs is a sure fire future top line player.

Loosen up...this is one of the more conservative ACGM teams posted. As I said, it's simply a difference in how we project certain prospects

Insulting my intelligence is a great way to further a discussion.

As for the rest of your remarks. You are making decisions off what you think the Leafs need (which is fine and understandable) and what prices have been in the past and what fans on here want (both are largely irrelevant considering the situation we are in). Just look at the landscape we are in.

Few teams have cap space. There are more sellers than buyers. The quarantine makes trades more difficult as well. There hasn't been any trades yet because the asking price is too high.

So with all that in mind what does that do to prices? Who are the buyers? TO, Edmonton and Winnipeg in the North. What about the west? Is anyone really a contender there beyond Colorado and Vegas? And Vegas has no cap space, so Colorado is a buyer. Everyone else is either not really in a position to buy (Minnesota) or more likely sellers.

What about the Central?

Florida, Carolina and Tampa are good teams and the rest are mediocre to bad. Tampa has no cap space, so Florida and Carolina could be buyers, the rest doing nothing or selling.

And the East? Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington and the Islanders are buyers and the rest sellers.

If what you for a living is negotiate the purchase of stuff, you would be familiar with supply and demand. When the supply is higher than the demand, does anyone worth their weight overpay knowing there is ample supply? No

So now after reading this, do I seem like a guy that needs the "careful the hot coffee is hot" label? Because as you can see, I'm thinking about more than just what do I want and what do opposing fans have to say about it. Let's be honest here, a fan isn't really happy unless they win a trade by a landslide and if that's what you propose to do, (lose in a landslide) to make a minor gain right now, that is just really not a good idea.

Why overpay when you don't have to?

Ok...but you realize that Oleksiak is
a) also a former first round pick
b) 6'7" solid D man on a good contract
c) already a top 4 d-man

So yea...I'd be fine giving up a prospect to get a solid D-man that can slot in up or down the lineup in case our blueline doesn't maintain perfect health to the end of the year

Nope none of that is what I am saying. I fully understand that a top 10 pick is more valuable than the 30th pick. I also fully understand sometimes drafted players don't work out. Often they do and TO has done a good job developing players over the past several years.

What I am saying is there is no need to just say "f*CK it here is 2 1st rounders and guy who's having a similar season because I don't want to hear it from fans who have a ridiculous expectation that they are going to get massive hauls for all their players".

Supply and demand, most seasons at the trade deadline there are contenders and a bunch of teams that are fighting for a playoff spot that are buyers. That isn't the case this year. There are effectively 2 spots still up for grabs. 4th in the west and central and in both cases whoever gets in is going to get destroyed by a much better team. So really you have a maximum of 14 teams that could, or should be buyers. Doing quick math, that means there are 17 teams that are sellers. How many of the buyers even have cap space? How many sellers have multiple pending UFA's? The amount of players vs the number of spots teams would like to fill or can fill is heavily favoring the buyers.

If one guy wants to buy apples and there are 5 guys selling, the buyer will just wait for the best price to buy them. He doesn't spend way more than the Apple is worth because he doesn't want to hear it from the fans of that Apple cart.

Oleksiak is big, he's also paired with one of the best defenceman in the league. He's a "his reputation vastly outshines his actual ability" guys. I'm not opposed to getting him, I just wouldn't waste Liljegren so we can have Oleksiak for a playoff run. Also do you think Oleksiak is going to be as good playing with Bogosian as he is with Hieskinen?

bruh...if you want to call my opinions silly and insane...don't get so sensitive if I toss a very soft insult back. You seem the need to write plainly obvious comments like "don't overpay if you don't have to". Terrific insight. Thanks. I know the coffee is hot.

You and I don't know the asking price and yet you seem super confident that you know simply due to economics.

But you're not dealing with simple economics 101 here...there's a very real human factor involved.
a) after firing a coach like Babcock, how much excess pressure is there on Dubas to have playoff success this year?
b) how much more is that amplified because their path to the cup doesn't go thru Tampa and Boston the year?
c) how does the team you're trading with view their team? To squads like Columbus or Dallas who had playoff success in recent years let key pieces go this year? Or would they rather hang on, re-sign them, and see what comes of next year?
d) how much leadership does your captain provide to the locker room. what does it say to your fan base and current roster if you trade him away for a couple magic beans?
e) if there is a specific player you covet, the supply is 1. Punch that into your elasticity model
f) many teams likely know the leafs need to include kerfoot for cap purposes...they could attach negative trade value to him, insist he ins't included, or accept him but refuse to retain salary in the deal...how much does ownership weigh in on a team like Columbus trading away their captain, keeping and taking on salary...and getting a return that barely raises an eyebrow? What...because the economics says that's the average asking price? Eff that...you want something you believe can make your roster better or you're better off not making any deal.

So don't confuse any of the above with me thinking Kyle picks up the phone and immediately offers a king's ransom up front. The pieces I've included are more representative of the price I would personally be willing to go up to if the GM on the other line wasn't responding to lower offers.

All of things in your list have merit but not across the board. Meaning that firing the coach does add pressure but does that mean to hell with the current climate let's overpay? Not in the slightest