Isnt this a playoff team

Joined: May 2016

Posts: 6,831

Likes: 1,979

Quoting: Gmonwy

Why do Flames need Zacha?

...and why would we give him up for that (his best year ever!)

Devil liked this.

May 13, 2021 at 2:38 p.m.

#4

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Zacha and Wood just had breakout years. We aren't trading them

Smitty426 liked this.

May 13, 2021 at 2:38 p.m.

#5

Joined: May 2016

Posts: 6,831

Likes: 1,979

Quoting: Tjm220

Buffalo hammers the accept button on that trade. Miles Wood always seems to kill buffalo. He belongs in blue and gold.

Yeah that one wont happen either!

May 13, 2021 at 2:40 p.m.

#6

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

I think this team has the potential to be a playoff team but we shouldn't build like this. The Devils shouldn't throw money and term at free agents. Instead they should let their young players develop and build through the draft

May 13, 2021 at 2:41 p.m.

#7

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: Gmonwy

Why do Flames need Zacha?

He would be 4th in points if he was on your team

May 13, 2021 at 2:45 p.m.

#8

Joined: May 2016

Posts: 6,831

Likes: 1,979

Quoting: Devil1122

I think this team has the potential to be a playoff team but we shouldn't build like this. The Devils shouldn't throw money and term at free agents. Instead they should let their young players develop and build through the draft

Going to need a backup of some sort
Hamilton is a no-brainer in my eyes, PK gone this year, Walsh, Mc and that's it, unles you count Smitty sliding over. Could work with Van to take the last 2 of Holtby (similar cost)

May 13, 2021 at 2:54 p.m.

#9

Thread Starter

Watches no games

Joined: Jul. 2017

Posts: 3,268

Likes: 977

Quoting: Smitty426

...and why would we give him up for that (his best year ever!)

Quoting: Devil1122

Zacha and Wood just had breakout years. We aren't trading them

Wood is an average NHLer - everything he brings offensively comes back the other end. Zacha is far worse - he's one of those guys who got a rep of being solid defensively because of his minutes, but in reality he's even in relative terms getting caved in and producing under expectations offensively. You'd be well off trading them now, before teams realize they're part of why NJ hasn't ascended yet, with some of the actual talent on that roster.

May 13, 2021 at 2:59 p.m.

#10

Ledge_And_Dairy

Joined: Jun. 2019

Posts: 38,402

Likes: 19,601

Quoting: Gmonwy

Why do Flames need Zacha?

for a 3rd we 1000% take him, no questions asked

May 13, 2021 at 3:04 p.m.

#11

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: Smitty426

Going to need a backup of some sort
Hamilton is a no-brainer in my eyes, PK gone this year, Walsh, Mc and that's it, unles you count Smitty sliding over. Could work with Van to take the last 2 of Holtby (similar cost)

I think it's a big possibility Smith moves to the right side. We could have Hughes, Mukamadullin, Bahl on the left side and Smith, Severson, Walsh on the right. Obviously that isn't, the strongest defense so I think we can add a defensemen or two through FA or trades

May 13, 2021 at 3:08 p.m.

#12

Joined: May 2016

Posts: 6,831

Likes: 1,979

Quoting: MelonVK

Wood is an average NHLer - everything he brings offensively comes back the other end. Zacha is far worse - he's one of those guys who got a rep of being solid defensively because of his minutes, but in reality he's even in relative terms getting caved in and producing under expectations offensively. You'd be well off trading them now, before teams realize they're part of why NJ hasn't ascended yet, with some of the actual talent on that roster.

Sure go with that, those returns will never happen. And sure moving them while their at maybe their top, problem is your offer is no where near top.
We will keep our junk, thx

May 13, 2021 at 3:09 p.m.

#13

Joined: May 2016

Posts: 6,831

Likes: 1,979

Quoting: Devil1122

I think it's a big possibility Smith moves to the right side. We could have Hughes, Mukamadullin, Bahl on the left side and Smith, Severson, Walsh on the right. Obviously that isn't, the strongest defense so I think we can add a defensemen or two through FA or trades

that core is two yrs away, minimum
a few pickups on the back end are needed to get us through that patch

Devil liked this.

May 13, 2021 at 3:10 p.m.

#14

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: MelonVK

Wood is an average NHLer - everything he brings offensively comes back the other end. Zacha is far worse - he's one of those guys who got a rep of being solid defensively because of his minutes, but in reality he's even in relative terms getting caved in and producing under expectations offensively. You'd be well off trading them now, before teams realize they're part of why NJ hasn't ascended yet, with some of the actual talent on that roster.

Wood can produce offensively, can play physical, and isn't a liability defensively

Zacha doesn't have a rep of being solid defensively. But he isn't a liability either. He doesn't have to play strong defensively with Nico on his line. Producing under expectations offensively is a horrible statement. He's the leading scorer and was on pace for just shy of 60 points in an 82 game season

Trading them for awful returns is not the way to go. The Devils haven't "ascended" because they are one of the youngest teams in NHL history

May 13, 2021 at 3:10 p.m.

#15

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: Smitty426

that core is two yrs away, minimum
a few pickups on the back end are needed to get us through that patch

I agree but we should target some players that fit the timeline of the rebuild

Smitty426 liked this.

May 13, 2021 at 3:20 p.m.

#16

Thread Starter

Watches no games

Joined: Jul. 2017

Posts: 3,268

Likes: 977

Quoting: Devil1122

Wood can produce offensively, can play physical, and isn't a liability defensively

Zacha doesn't have a rep of being solid defensively. But he isn't a liability either. He doesn't have to play strong defensively with Nico on his line. Producing under expectations offensively is a horrible statement. He's the leading scorer and was on pace for just shy of 60 points in an 82 game season

Trading them for awful returns is not the way to go. The Devils haven't "ascended" because they are one of the youngest teams in NHL history

There's so much wrong here... Being young literally doesn't mean all that much - most players have their best seasons around 23 or 24. Who's not good then? Why are the Devils a bad team?

If we're performing analysis on a "points = good"-basis I guess you got me beat. I like to look at underlying numbers, you know, the ones I'm pretty sure you use when making that "Jack Hughes is elite" claim. If we're only using that analysis when it favors us I don't think we're really being intellectually honest here. Zacha is a career > 11% shooter, but we believe he's truly shooting 16.5% based on this season? come on man, you know better than this. Your team has bad players, Zacha is one of them.

May 13, 2021 at 3:33 p.m.

#17

NHLfan10506

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 40,242

Likes: 18,370

Thank you, MelonVK.

Its a good approach - and nice that you think so highly of the Devils young forwards that you'd see Zacha and Wood as excess.
I think for now we should be keeping those guys. Still just 25 and 24.

Tatar would fit very nicely into our system. And NJ loves Pickles.
But I doubt we fork over $10m for that duo.
We have Holtz, Mercer, Foote arriving next season.

Mike Reilly gets a little less $$, and not a need for us.

Hamilton likely re-signs in Raleigh after expansion draft.
Unless Seattle can talk him into signing there in their exclusive window.

May 13, 2021 at 3:43 p.m.

#18

RH1942

Joined: Apr. 2021

Posts: 16

Likes: 6

Quoting: Devil1122

I think it's a big possibility Smith moves to the right side. We could have Hughes, Mukamadullin, Bahl on the left side and Smith, Severson, Walsh on the right. Obviously that isn't, the strongest defense so I think we can add a defensemen or two through FA or trades

Mukhamadullin and Hughes aren't in the organization.

May 13, 2021 at 3:46 p.m.

#19

NHLfan10506

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 40,242

Likes: 18,370

Quoting: MelonVK

There's so much wrong here... Being young literally doesn't mean all that much - most players have their best seasons around 23 or 24. Who's not good then? Why are the Devils a bad team?

If we're performing analysis on a "points = good"-basis I guess you got me beat. I like to look at underlying numbers, you know, the ones I'm pretty sure you use when making that "Jack Hughes is elite" claim. If we're only using that analysis when it favors us I don't think we're really being intellectually honest here. Zacha is a career > 11% shooter, but we believe he's truly shooting 16.5% based on this season? come on man, you know better than this. Your team has bad players, Zacha is one of them.

Break out those numbers on shot shares, goal shares, etc on Zacha between (1) when he plays Center and (2) when he plays Wing.
He is completely different guy.

Also, its worth knowing the two very different systems in which he has played.

(1) Hynes system: Holds centers back from joining rush. Centers hold their zone, keep triangle formation with the two d-men. This allows wingers to roam free. (And how Taylor Hall put in MVP season, Nikita Gusev looked like world-beater...but Zacha, Hughes, Hischier all had lower offensive output). (also why Duchene has lower output, but different thread for that).

(2) Ruff system: Puts everybody into transition...whomever is furthest up the ice. This allows more scoring from center position (and from d-men). (This is how you see offensive d-man put up good numbers in his system and more offensive up the middle). (Also why I think Boqvist has shifted back to Center).

Ruff has played Zacha mostly at wing, but Hynes system did depress offensive output from centers.
So keep all that in mind when number-crunching.

Devil liked this.

May 13, 2021 at 3:51 p.m.

#20

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: RH1942

Mukhamadullin and Hughes aren't in the organization.

Mukamadullin is in the organization. Our first round pick last year

It seems like Devils will take Luke Hughes if he is available. Even if he isn't available, we'll take a LHD like Edvinsson

May 13, 2021 at 3:57 p.m.

#21

RH1942

Joined: Apr. 2021

Posts: 16

Likes: 6

Quoting: Devil1122

Mukamadullin is in the organization. Our first round pick last year

It seems like Devils will take Luke Hughes if he is available. Even if he isn't available, we'll take a LHD like Edvinsson

He's on the reserve list. When/if he signs an ELC he will be in the organization. Without knowing where they are picking, it's tough to say what they will pick.

May 13, 2021 at 3:57 p.m.

#22

Speak of the Devil

Joined: Nov. 2017

Posts: 23,936

Likes: 26,436

Quoting: MelonVK

There's so much wrong here... Being young literally doesn't mean all that much - most players have their best seasons around 23 or 24. Who's not good then? Why are the Devils a bad team?

If we're performing analysis on a "points = good"-basis I guess you got me beat. I like to look at underlying numbers, you know, the ones I'm pretty sure you use when making that "Jack Hughes is elite" claim. If we're only using that analysis when it favors us I don't think we're really being intellectually honest here. Zacha is a career > 11% shooter, but we believe he's truly shooting 16.5% based on this season? come on man, you know better than this. Your team has bad players, Zacha is one of them.

Zacha is a completely changed player. New system, new position, new role, new linemates. You can't compare his past shooting percentage and say this year was a fluke.

May 13, 2021 at 4:05 p.m.

#23

Thread Starter

Watches no games

Joined: Jul. 2017

Posts: 3,268

Likes: 977

Quoting: NHLfan10506

Thank you, MelonVK.

Its a good approach - and nice that you think so highly of the Devils young forwards that you'd see Zacha and Wood as excess.
I think for now we should be keeping those guys. Still just 25 and 24.

Tatar would fit very nicely into our system. And NJ loves Pickles.
But I doubt we fork over $10m for that duo.
We have Holtz, Mercer, Foote arriving next season.

Mike Reilly gets a little less $$, and not a need for us.

Hamilton likely re-signs in Raleigh after expansion draft.
Unless Seattle can talk him into signing there in their exclusive window.

I don't heavily disagree with much of this. I do however still think Zacha and Wood are the exact type of pieces that don't really improve your team you can do without. But you're right, I think Holtz has a solid chance of making an NHL impact as soon as next season, and if not there are other options as you mention. I still think one veteran winger - especially given the talent in this years FA class, is a good route for NJ to take. And of course I don't disagree with your judgement of likelihood of anything here happening - especially Hamilton, but what's this board for if not speculation, right?

May 13, 2021 at 4:14 p.m.

#24