Holl isnt comparable to Dahlin in the slightest, so no that doesnt make sense. The context of the argument is that Sandin and Lundkvist are equals. Dahlin is far superior to Holl. So youre entire argument is null and void. But even then youre not addressing the fact that the Rangers also dont need him, which is a whole separate layer on its own, there are 7 dmen on NYR's roster right now and Sandin doesnt supplant one of them

not a fan of either team but i think sandin is the better player. its just my opinion and obviously is fine if you disagree. just stating that maybe what you think is obvious to you, others might disagree with and your opinion might not the be the consensus (just like mine might not be)

you make the statement that Sandin is "almost entirely" an upgrade over Jones.
i asked how, which normally means someone is looking for some quantification of the statement.

that is what i mean....

Sandin is better than Lundkvist? Maybe, we havent gotten an extended look at Jones or Lundkvist, but i dont think Sandin has more room to grow from what we've seen of him. On that principle alone if it was Sandin for Lundkvist and another team offered a 2nd, id take the 2nd instead. Sandin isnt a must have, hes an also-ran

I disagree on this. The idea that a defenseman doesnt have more room to grow at age 22 is pretty absurd. At 22 people were writing Noah Hanifin off as a depth defensman. Now at 25 he's established himself as a top 25 defensman in the league

Holl isnt comparable to Dahlin in the slightest, so no that doesnt make sense. The context of the arguement is that Sandin and Lundkvist are equals. Dahlin is far superior to Holl

you aren't being serious, are you?

The point I'm making is that being a RHD doesn't automatically increase value, so it's not about equals in skill or ability and it's not Dahlin vs Holl either. It's Sandin vs Dahlin but because Dahlin is much better Holl is being thrown in as a sweetner, and the question is how much does Holl's RHDness tip the scale? I also have an alternatively scenario Dahlin for Liljegren.

Within the context, I'm saying that Sandin isn't a comparable to Lundkvist in terms of ability because he's more established, while you are saying that Lundkvist is the more skilled player and has a greater value because he's a primary asset as a RHD, which would be true if he was the younger, more talented player. My assumptions are that they have similar potentials based off where they were taken in the draft, Sandin is the more capable player based off his games played vs Lundkvist's, so I said right handedness doesn't automatically put him ahead of Sandin or make him an equal in trade value.

I also, said I don't know who the more talented player is, so even if Lundkvist is the more valuable player, it doesn't mean that getting Sandin for him is an awful return based of the circumstances around him being shopped. You suggested that this trade is an awful trade when you said "LOL but its Toronto, the league is built around them. Why wouldnt you want to donate a young talented Right handed D man for practically nothing?" implying that Sandin has no value in comparison and the only reason why NYR are dealing him is because they have too many defenders which isn't true as I mentioned in the previous post.

To summarize, I'm saying:

1) RHDness doesn't automatically give someone more trade value or a ton of trade value
2) Sandin might have more trade value than Lundkvist unless he is the more talented player and has just been mismanaged
3) Assuming that you are correct about Lundkvist being the more valuable player, the return isn't horrid considering that Lundkvist requested a trade, and Drury wants to trade him prior to camp, and Sandin is a player that NYR can use and potentially afford who does have value.

Not defensemen as a whole, Sandin in particular. I dont think he's that special

Sandin is better than Lundkvist? Maybe, we havent gotten an extended look at Jones or Lundkvist, but i dont think Sandin has more room to grow from what we've seen of him. On that principle alone if it was Sandin for Lundkvist and another team offered a 2nd, id take the 2nd instead. Sandin isnt a must have, hes an also-ran

The point I'm making is that being a RHD doesn't automatically increase value, so it's not about equals in skill or ability and it's not Dahlin vs Holl either. It's Sandin vs Dahlin but because Dahlin is much better Holl is being thrown in as a sweetner, and the question is how much does Holl's RHDness tip the scale? I also have an alternatively scenario Dahlin for Liljegren.

Within the context, I'm saying that Sandin isn't a comparable to Lundkvist in terms of ability because he's more established, while you are saying that Lundkvist is the more skilled player and has a greater value because he's a primary asset as a RHD, which would be true if he was the younger, more talented player. My assumptions are that they have similar potentials based off where they were taken in the draft, Sandin is the more capable player based off his games played vs Lundkvist's, so I said right handedness doesn't automatically put him ahead of Sandin or make him an equal in trade value.

I also, said I don't know who the more talented player is, so even if Lundkvist is the more valuable player, it doesn't mean that getting Sandin for him is an awful return based of the circumstances around him being shopped. You suggested that this trade is an awful trade when you said "LOL but its Toronto, the league is built around them. Why wouldnt you want to donate a young talented Right handed D man for practically nothing?" implying that Sandin has no value in comparison and the only reason why NYR are dealing him is because they have too many defenders which isn't true as I mentioned in the previous post.


To summarize, I'm saying:

1) RHDness doesn't automatically give someone more trade value or a ton of trade value
2) Sandin might have more trade value than Lundkvist unless he is the more talented player and has just been mismanaged
3) Assuming that you are correct about Lundkvist being the more valuable player, the return isn't horrid considering that Lundkvist requested a trade, and Drury wants to trade him prior to camp, and Sandin is a player that NYR can use and potentially afford who does have value.

What type of numbers are you looking for? Jones barely played last year but when he did he was quite mediocre. An upgrade over Nemeth but still not great. Sandin played quite well in his sheltered but mostly full time NHL role. He is certainly much more NHL ready and has a much higher ceiling than Jones

About what exactly? If it's the Dahlin for Sandin+Holl or Liljegren, no, I was just trying to prove a point about the value of handedness, and that a RHD isn't automatically more valuable than a LHD. If it's something else, read the post below.

1) It does though but your comparison isnt close
If you had a dollar and a misprint dollar, the misprint dollar trades at auction for $8.75. The misprint dollar is more valuable than a dollar, but no one is trading a $100 dollar bill for it.
Holl is a dollar, Lundkvist is a misprint dollar, Dahlin is a 100$ bill
2) and 3) The Rangers dont need Sandin, this is at least 50% of the problem, Jones is a highly touted prospect that Drury seems to think is ready for full time duty

using your logic:

Toronto Trades - Reilly

Rangers Trade - Hajek and Lundkvist

This trade is fair because I've added Lundkvist and he is a RHD.

What do you mean? I'm not the one who is saying that being a RHD automatically makes you more valuable. Re-read my previous reply. The whole point is to say that it isn't a fair trade. It's a mute point though, because he views Sandin and Lundkvist as equals in age and ability, but Lundkvist as more talented plus he's a RHD, so therefore, he has a whole lot more trade value than Sandin, and if that was true he would be correct, but it's not the mere handidness that automatically makes him more valuable. I'm saying they probably aren't equals, in terms of ability it seems to me that Sandin is more capable, I could be wrong, which then takes me to my second point.

Point 2: Even if Lundkvist is the more valuable player, Sandin isn't a bad return. He says yes it is, a 2nd is better, because there's no need for Sandin because of Jones (who might not even have a roster spot).

Not trying to be rude but if being a RHD always means being valuable, then how about Holl+Sandin for Dahlin

you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
-there is no proof that Sandin has a higher ceiling than Jones
-you could make the argument that if the Rangers weren't pressured to play the newly signed Nemeth and gave Jones the full season on the 3rd pair that he would be just as far along (which isn't very far) as Sandin
-the concept of this trade does not make any sense for the Rangers
-everything that you have said thus far about Sandin can be applied to both Jones and Nemeth

this whole debate has been spawned because of a trade that would benefit TML and not the Rangers, so we are just spinning tires here.
Nils requested a trade but there is zero pressure on Drury to move him. Loan him to the SHL and trade him when the correct deal presents itself.
this trade isn't it.

Holl is worth more as a right handed dman. He has more value than his comparables, this is a fact. Your example is Holl and Sandin for Dahlin. Even with Holl's inflated value, Holl and Sandin, arent in the same universe as Dahlin. So youre not making a point. If SJS trades Simek for Holl, SJ wins that trade because Holl is a right-handed Dman. I dont know why this is hard to understand
Surplus is an issue, Lundkvist wants to get traded because theres no spot for him, its why we're here in the first place. Jones is ready or Drury would have signed a UFA - the Rangers are generally one of the more desirable teams to sign with, even when there bad, he wouldnt have had a problem shoring up the 3rd pair D spot. There were plenty of players comparable to Sandin in UFA. That should be interpreted as Drury having 0 interest in D men

LOL but its Toronto, the league is built around them. Why wouldnt you want to donate a young talented Right handed D man for practically nothing?

I'm not confused about when righthandedness does increase a player's value, I know that it could that's why I said that it doesn't automatically increase a player's value. The Dahlin example is an example where a clear cut better player for a player of similar age, high upside (even if it's lower), handedness isn't going to even move the needle to make it anywhere close. You're assuming that I think Sandin and Lundkvist are comparables beyond age and potential, but I'm saying Sandin seems to be the better player now, enough to make him just as valuable or more based of the situation which we also disagree about.

Reread what I said about surplus, on the left side isn't going to be an issue unless Sandin isn't going to get playing time which means that Jones is NHL ready and better than Sandin now (he might be I don't know). If Jones is worse than Sandin now, NHL ready and willing to play as the 7th D or earn his spot, then having a surplus is a good issue to have. Now if he goes asking for a trade like Lundkvist then it's an issue you don't want. I already qualified my statement though about both surplus not being an issue just like I did with handidness and trade value previously. Now, the surplus on the right side which has become an issue because it led to Lundkvist asking a trade, has nothing to do with the left side. The same thing could happen on the left side, but that's Drury's job to know, I have no clue about Jones' readiness so to me it seems like there's a spot that Sandin can play, which is our 2nd point of disagreement. The 3rd (it was previously my second point but it's connected to the previous point) was with the assumption that Lundkvist is the more valuable player, that taking a second is better than taking Sandin for him, and we disagree because you think Sandin has no spot to play, to me it seems like he does.

Summary (not sure if you're just reading these and that's why you are having trouble with what I'm saying or if it's because I'm being too wordy):

1a) I don't agree that Lundkvist is the more valuable player because I don't think he edges Sandin out in anything expect for being a RHD.
1b) If overall they are equals, then I agree with you that Lundkvist is more valuable being the RHD. If Lundkvist is better overall, then his handedness just makes him much more valuable than Sandin as you suggested with your first comment when you said Sandin is "practically nothing".

2a) If I'm wrong and Lundkvist is the more valuable player, I still don't agree that Sandin is a bad return because I do think there's a spot, that he can play.
2b) If there is no spot for him to play like you said, then perhaps a 2nd is a better return, but in terms of value it's still less than Sandin's, that being said it makes no sense to trade for another player they can't use.

The only thing I'm unsure about is if you think Lundkvist just more talented but Sandin is slightly more developed or if you think Lundkvist is more talented and just as developed?

The Dahlin example is an example where a clear cut better player for a player of similar age, high upside (even if it's lower), handedness isn't going to even move the needle to make it anywhere close.

If overall they are equals, then I agree with you that Lundkvist is more valuable being the RHD

I didnt say being right handed makes you jump tiers in value , I said multiple times in multiple comments that when comparing similar value dmen when one is Left handed and one is right handed, the right handed dman has more value than the left handed dman when there is no other delineating factor, so the Dahlin example is a false association.

The example the entire time: Sandin - Left handed Lundkvist - right handed, value is nearly even, edge Lundkvist
So even if we disagree on their value, which we do - Lundkvist could be a top 4 Dman PPQB, Sandin is right were he should be until he leaves the NHL for Sweden in a couple of years. Sandin is not a Dahlin to Lundkvist being Holl, their value is infinitely closer right now, as Lundkvist has not shown enough at the NHL level to gauge his play. and as I said before, Sandin is not a must have. There is not enough need for Sandin for NY to consider that a win.

The first thing you said that I replied to was:

"LOL but its Toronto, the league is built around them. Why wouldnt you want to donate a young talented Right handed D man for practically nothing?"

IMO if youre trading for something you dont need, youre trading for nothing.

I do think Lundkvist is more talented too, Sandin is more established and further developed. But being established does not mean you're more developed, just in this case, I think Sandin is further along in development. Which is why I also dont think he has much more ceiling left