Why are we giving up a first

Is the shedding of Mantha and the return of Taylor Hall and Erik Portillo not worth a first round selection? Even with the retention to Forbort I feel like the Caps are getting off pretty light here.

This

I would rather keep Mantha one more year and use the cap space for the stacked '24 ufa market than pay a first for a Hall, and the caps already have a ton of goalies in the system, we don't need Portillo at all.

Literally not worth it at all, The caps don't move Mantha unless they get something back. He can still play in a third-line role. Paying a first for another overpayed winger and a goalie that we don't need is dumb.

There’s zero incentive for Washington to do this. Taylor Hall is not worth anywhere near a 1st to the Capitals and the Capitals aren’t going to attach any 1st to move Mantha.

Seriously WTF. Why does Washington, a team that is beginning a rebuild and trying to get younger, trade a future 1st when they’re picking 8th Overall THIS YEAR for Taylor Hall. This proposal did not consider the position of the Washington Capitals at all.

I would agree that Stevenson and Gibson (explicitly in that order) are likely the duo the Caps will hedge their bets on for the future. Bjorklund, Clark, and Kostenko aren't showing anything that suggests NHL talent.

I don't think adding Portillo is necessarily a bad thing for the Capitals: his acquisition affords himself or Gibson a season in the ECHL allowing either man to slowplay their development. It really doesn't work only if the Capitals are planning to tandem Stevenson with a veteran next season in Hershey. With Fucale possibly headed to Chelyabinsk, any ideas as to who the Caps are preferential to having in net in Hershey?

The 2024 pick is the one in question, not the 2023 selection.

Irrelevant. If the Caps are picking Top 10 now whats there to say they won’t be again next year, and the year after. I’m not trading any Mid- to Early-1st for Taylor Hall (or to dump Mantha for one season). The idea is poor overall regardless the year of the pick.

I don't see the Kings trading Portillo considering the status of their goaltending pipeline.

Even if you take him out, a 2nd and Durzi is arguably a fair deal for Ullmark (although I think it's still too much). Throwing in Arvidsson and making the Kings eat Forbort's contract makes this a pretty easy no from LA.

It's pretty clear that Shepard and Stevenson will be in Hershey with Gibson and Bjorklund in South Carolina. Even if Shep leaves then Stevenson and Gibson would be the tandem, or they would just sign a free agent goalie to fill that spot with Stevenson. Not really that complicated. Portillo adds nothing to the caps future, other than more logjam in Goalie. With Kuemper and Lindgren both signed long-term, adding a young goalie isn't in the cards rn.

I disagree that adding another goalie does nothing for the Capitals BUT will amend that your premise isn't entirely incorrect and I very much see where you're coming from.

Lindgren only has a two year deal that in itself is fully buriable. Goaltenders typically take the longest amount of time to develop, traditionally not breaking into the league until they're 25 years old. Exceptions to that rule have typically been recent. Off the top of my head, unless they were objectively bonafide, history shows us that goalie is a mature position. Until Lindgren signs another extension I don't think it wise to consider him a part of the Capitals' long term plans.

If Portillo has a loan agreement to the SHL in his contract, acquiring him makes sense. Burying one of him, Gibson, or Stevenson in the ECHL for anything beyond a season does not. No player's development is guaranteed so in theory, the more chances you have of developing an NHL goaltender, the more likely it happens.

Preferences regarding Mantha v Hall are your own and I can't add much to that discussion as I watch neither the Bruins or Capitals with any seriousness or fervor. On paper it seemed fine enough to me but you have the inside track on that perspective. I defer!

Nick Schmaltz is not a center. There is a reason he ranks 132nd in FO taken over the last 3 years

They're beginning a rebuild based on what exactly? I haven't really noticed anything towards that nature, save moving two pending UFAs at the deadline for futures given that that year had been a failure towards expectations.

They're getting 8th overall pick for this year sure, but I'm pretty much certain they would try to make it back to playoffs by next year. Their situation is that regard is fairly similar to STL, for instance.

You're right this wouldn't consider WSH's position if they were about to rebuild, but the premise here is that they are not. They are upgrading in player level, shedding cap of a player that has been a failure for them, and the first in the deal is conditional to boot.

You're so wrong here. The ECHL is great for goalie development. The caps have shown this time after time, which is why so many of the goalies they've developed are playing/have played across the NHL. Just to name a few here: Holtby, Vitek Vanecek, Grubauer, Nuevirth, hell even Copley had ECHL games in South Carolina. These goalies all played in the East Coast league and were all/are all starters in the NHL at some point. So while you think that it's Burying in the ECHL, it's actually developing them, and I would argue that it's better than Sweden for goalies because of the smaller ice surface. Maybe if your team knew how to develop goalies you'd know this.

I wouldn't contest the idea that getting ice time, regardless of where it happens, ever is a bad thing for goalie's development. But I think the level difference between SHL and ECHL is crucial to note here, I think the quality of game is so much better in SHL given they are all pros at what they do there, it's likely a Top5 league in the world.

But as a sidenote, given that you two already have a few goalie prospects, maybe Portillo is not the most apt target here. In that case, name a prospect you would replace him with. The prospect can be from BOS or LA, as that follows the premise of the 4-way trade.

I'm going to ignore the overwhelming snark and highlight that I explicitly stated that a tenure over a season in the ECHL would not be beneficial.

Braden Holtby got 12 games with the Stingrays.
Vanecek had a combined 34 games over two years.
Grubauer got 42 games with the Stingrays in 2012 and a half season with Reading the subsequent season.
Neuvirth saw 13 games for the Stingrays.
Phoenix Copley had a 3-game cup of coffee in the ECHL following the conclusion of his college season.

Of the sample you provided, only two of the goaltenders listed played an actual full season in the ECHL. Of the five, only one of them exceeded that single-season total I referenced. Why do you think this is?

Players talented enough to make the jump from the ECHL to AHL will do so early in their developmental process before refining their craft in the minors or taking the next step to the majors. This is a very simple calculus. Good players advance, bad ones don't.

If we reframe this philosophy in the context of my original statement, I implicitly assumed that the trio of Stevenson, Gibson, and Portillo are all good enough to take the jump from East Coast to American. You don't want to keep any of those men in a developmental league below their capacity because that in turn is detrimental to a player's development. If you had instead been focused on the actual content of our discussion instead of trying your best to dunk on my own allegiances, you probably would have noticed that I wasn't arguing against you or against the three prospects in question.

Sure, the angles matter when considering rink sizes, but so do the shot and player qualities those goaltenders face. The SHL is the third-best hockey league on the planet. I think any opportunity to hone your skills against top competition is in the best interest of anyone, especially if there isn't room in the typical farm league the NHL relies upon.

They’re beginning a rebuild based on the fact they’ve been trading vets for picks. As a BOS fan I’m sure the names Orlov and Hathaway will jog your memory. The Caps are absolutely rotating to a rebuild on the fly. As such, Taylor Hall has practically no value to a team in WSH position, especially so if it costs us any future 1st. The Caps are not desperate to move Mantha and will not be including a 1st (any 1st) to dump him.

I'm not a BOS fan. I hate them. And I literally said, other than trading pending UFAs for futures after a lackluster season which is perfectly normal thing to do - might as well maximize the value of assets you don't need/can't afford after they require a contract extension. Keep in mind they also traded the same first for Sandin, specifically because they intended to get better short-term.

Just about nothing about WSH has been doing screams a rebuild to me, only a short term retool.

This Hall thing is going back and forth. I suppose the only question remaining here is that how one values Hall as a player. Imo, he has plenty of more value than Mantha, but you're entitled to think otherwise.

None of what you've said goes against what I've said about the Caps goalie situation, but the ECHL is better for goalies than the Euroleagues. ANd just incase you were confused. Holbty was slated for a full year in the ECHL but injuries in Washington causes Varlomov and Neuvirth to be called up from Hershey. he would've gotten a full 30 games in the ECHL if not for that. A similar situation happened in 08-09 with Neuvirth, ending his ECHL tenure early. he then got the end of the season in Hershey as the playoff starter. as an injury forced him into the lineup. You can't bet on injuries forcing your goalie prospects into higher leagues, nor should you want it to happen. You also asked me earlier what the depth of the cap at goalie is like so I'll show you again.

AHL:
Shepard (OR UFA)
Stevenson graduates to AHL after 1 ECHL season and 3 AHL games.

ECHL:
Gibson 0 ECHL games
Bjorklund 1 game in ECHL after a terrible back injury that kept him out all year.
Portillo had a worse final NCAA season than Gibson he would slot in here too, probably on a different ECHL team

NCAA
Clark

I'm not proposing putting a goalie in the ECHL for two seasons in a row, just one season until there is space in the AHL for them. You'd get more games in the ECHL than you would in Sweden as a young goalie. A goalie's development isn't just about the quality of shots they face but also about the sheer workload and experience they get, the ECHL is a very competitive league for Goalies. Getting 32 games in the ECHL and a few AHL games is way better for a goalie than getting 20-something games in the SHL as a 1B option. You seem convinced that I am proposing that all the caps young goalies should be fighting for time in the ECHL but It actually makes sense for the goalies in the caps system. Portillo is an AHL goalie with the Kings, but he's not with the Caps (unless Shepard doesn't return which is a different conversation altogether). ECHL time wouldn't hurt Portillo, but a full year in the SHL might.

no it is not