those two could very well be on the block (Turcotte especially) and Hughes has said hes looking for a dach 2.0 trade

with that in mind, it makes no sense for either jersey or LA to trade them for prospects, they're contending for cups

Is there something in the water up in Quebec?

Don’t think LA moves Turcotte in a prospect for a prospect trace, that was Blake’s pick and patience has been paying off, ie Vilardi.

Appreciate the perspective. What does get those deals done?

Holtz had one of the most productive D+2 seasons ever in AHL last year and is today a top-10 prospect in the league. If we sold him, Habs would have to deal out if their top-6 (ie Suzuki, Dach, Caufield) to get him.

You hate the Holtz trade eh? You still feel he has top 10 value?

Alright. Maybe my perspective is off. I look at the rest of round 1 of the 2020 draft and the majority of the players have established themselves in the NHL, especially everyone else in the top 10.

No reason to think he doesn’t. He had third highest scoring season for D+2 player in AHL (I believe Reichel and Rantanen were only two above him).

If Habs wanted Holtz and were willing to move Caufield, Dach, or Slafkovsky for him…I am sure he would be obtainable. But two kids still in juniors gets Boqvist, maybe Sharangovich.

Every other top 10 player from 2020 has an established spot in the NHL, right? It's not crazy to say he is lagging behind?

EDIT: Actually just noticed Rossi is not established either. But a lot of the 11-20 crowd is as well.

Appreciate the perspective. What kind of a deal gets it done, because it's hard to trade an established top 6 NHL player for him. Are you saying some bottom 6 role player(s) gets the deal done? Like a Jake Evans + Kovacevic?

NJ would want more value for Holtz. Kidney’s ceiling is inflated by points numbers (like most Q prospects), and Jared Davidson is basically a nothing prospect. With Holtz we know he can at least play professional hockey

I think the best value trades for prospects are with unsigned players, especially if their rights expire soon. Here are three examples for Montreal:

1. John Farinacci is probably on par with a guy like Kidney. He has said he will not sign in Arizona (will be free agent in August). He was college teammate of Sean Farrell.

2. Alex Campbell is transferring out of a low-scoring Clarkson program to a somewhat-rebuilding, and certainly higher profile, Northeastern team, a program MTL brass are familiar with. His game style is often compared to Johnny Gaudreau and he is likely going to be centerpiece to their offense. His rights will expire at end of next year.

3. Case McCarthy is returning for his 5th year at Boston University to captain their squad (and play with his little brother, 2023-eligible Gavin). He is a stay-at-home, defensive dman. Good mix of skill and grit. And has specialized in pairing as the defensive partner to an offensive dman. Looking back over last few years, his partners have been Cam York (2018-19 at NTDP), David Farrance (2019-21 at BU), Dom Fensore (2021-22 at BU) and Lane Hutson (2022-23 at BU). Recognize that last guy? All of them had fantastic offensive seasons as his defensive partner. McCarthy’s rights expire after next year and NJD has crowded RD pipeline as is.

Understood. Teams from the Q won the Memorial Cup 4 years in a row now, but some people insist on the narrative that the league is not as strong as the OHL/WHL. I personally think the league is stronger than it has ever been before.

Kidney is arguably the most improved prospect in the Habs system as he changed from being a perimeter player on offense to a player who attacks the middle of the ice. I think most agree there is at least a bottom 6 role in his future, or maybe a middle 6 role if he moves to the wing? I thought a young role player Center would be just what the doctor ordered for the Devils.

Davidson is arguably a bubble prospect, but his work ethic and compete sets him apart. He has a Gallagher sort of thing going for him and he was one of the most productive forwards in the playoffs in the WHL while bringing home the championship (and in his D+1 season). I would not count him out.

LA needs goaltending and cap space, Turcotte doesn’t seem to be the vehicle to address this, in fact if Grundstrom or one of our $4Mish is moved he’ll likely get the first call up to take that role. Vilardi couldn’t be moved for a second last off season, now I wouldn’t move him short of something spectacular.

Interesting insights. I feel like you don't want to continue the conversation about Holtz "top 10" upside. Not trying to upset anyone with this deal, I like the player but cannot see him thrive in a bottom 6 role, and if you sign Meier & Bratt... Where does he really fit into your plans?

Haula-Hughes-Bratt
Meier-Hischier-Holtz
Palat-Mercer-Boqvist/Sharangovich

He will take Palat’s spot in the top 6

Gotcha. Alright I hope it all works out. I can understand not wanting to move on from a top 10 pick after 2 seasons.

It’s not impossible for him to be had but like NHLfan said, it’d have to be some sort of important upgrade on the active roster. Now if he still doesn’t cement himself as an nhler after this upcoming season, then it is safe to say he needs a change of scenery and tbf his value would probably be pretty low

Sorta like Turcotte?

Yep. But at least Turcotte was drafted as a center haha

Thanks for the interesting conversation!

Always appreciate a civil, friendly discussion. Way to many people on this site are far to serious.

Sure - happy to

I expect him to be in our top-6 by end of this coming season. Or at least getting regular minutes, serving on power play. Our coach changes lines frequently, so everyone kind of moves around the top-9.

2021-22 was a very good year for him, for his development and for proving up his game to professional NA hockey. Historically huge year.

2022-23 was a weird year. He lit it up in pre-season playing on Hughes line. As season started, other guys started hot and he didn’t find minutes, so they sent him down to Utica, where he once again lit it up. Figuring he had nothing left to prove with the Comets, they called him back to NHL club again. Then came the month-long Devils winning streak where he was stuck in press box (Lindy doesn’t change lineup after a win). They considered sending him down, but assistant coach Andrew Brunette was working with him one-on-one almost daily and they decided that was important to his development. In December, he played more often, but looked rusty and at times, hesitant. In January, he got into some games and looked good, especially on defensive side. But we soon had to make room for new arrivals, so back to Utica he was sent. He got hurt in first game back and tried to play through it, but they put him on the shelf for a couple of weeks. As late arrival, they didn’t add him to power play until the 2nd round of playoffs…so he did most of his scoring at even strength. It looks on paper like it was an up and down year, but there was a lot of positive development.

I expect, by the end of 2023-24, our lines to be something like the following.

Meier - Hischier - Bratt
Holtz - Hughes - Mercer
Sharangovich/Boqvist - Haula/Boqvist - Palat
Foote - McLeod - Bastian

Guys will bounce around on different lines as Lindy often switches forward combinations. The 3rd line depends if we bring Haula back and/or trade one of Boqvist or Sharangovich. Tyce Thompson or Graeme Clarke could also work their way into the picture in bottom-six.

As for how we value him…yes, still as a top-prospect. When the Sharks asked about Holtz in Meier deal, one report said Fitzgerald’s response was “if Holtz, then it’s only Holtz”. San Jose opted for Mukhamadullin, Zetterlund and picks instead. I would not say he is untouchable, but it would have to be a very serious offer to obtain him. One that probably includes a guy like Caufield or Slafkovsky or Dach or similar.

As for how others value him, the most recent prospect rankings since the last draft

McKeens: #10 overall
Scott Wheeler: #22 overall
Corey Pronman: #72 among all u23 (#23 among non-NHL)
Hockey Writers: #8 overall
Daily Faceoff: #13 overall
Elite Prospects: #16 overall

Alright sir. Let's see how things shake out next season! All the best, except when your Devils are playing my Habs!

Also, keep mind that goal-scorers often develop in step-changes (not always a straight-line). Look where other goal-scorers were in D+3 seasons.

Cole Caufield. In his first 29 games, he had 1 goal, 7 assists. But he got plenty of opportunity and it clicked in 2nd half.

Meier. In his first 28 games, 3 goals, 3 assists.
Kyrou, 1 goal, 2 assists
Necas, 1 goal, 1 assist
Robertson, only 3 GP
Tage, 12 points

…and so on…