The Leafs are in quite a bind right now. It looks likely that Matt Murray is going to get boughtout within the next 5 - 7 days, but even after that another move will have to be made. I highly doubt Timmins is going to get waived given his good play with the Leafs, his low cost, his term, and also just based on the upside that is still there. He is a bigger RD with great offense and a good defensive upside. He is apart of our future, and I think that the amount of Leafs fans willing to quit on the guy and risk him to waivers is insane. Plus, even if we go down that route, we can only ice a 20 man roster. It just makes zero sense to oust a guy making 1.1 mil.
One guy that I could honestly see being moved is Brodie. Don't get it twisted, I love Brodie as a player and think his style is perfect for the Leafs. He is a very good player. The issue is that he makes 5 million dollars. He is certainly a positive asset and would be sought after if he were to become available. He is pretty low risk, plays both LD and RD, and is among the best defensive defenseman in the league. It is honestly kind of weird that he may be the guy moved, but I think it may be a route worth exploring. I'm almost certain Liljegren is going to get a real shot in the top 4, and Klingberg will most likely be paired with McCabe on that second pair, so that leaves Brodie for the third pair. We simply can't give a guy 5 mil and play him on the bottom pair.
One team that I think makes sense for Brodie is Vancouver. They have clearly (and rightfully) made reworking their blueline a priority. They brought in Soucy who is an excellent defenseman, Cole who is no slouch, and rid themselves of OEL. Getting a guy like Brodie would make them a very dangerous team, and could give them a decent partner for Soucy. It would also push Myers down the depth chart which is always nice. The fit seems perfect for the Canucks. It would certainly hurt the Leafs to lose Brodie, but clearing his money gives us more flexibility and doesn't sacrifice our goalscoring.
There is a lot riding on Timmins and Liljegren here, but I think it's a risk worth taking. It is certainly a better risk to take than risking Timmins to waivers for nothing based on how valuable his contract is to the team alone. Liljegren has shown that he can be a proper top 4 NHL defenseman. He and Giordano made up our best defensive pairing just a year ago. He is easily a guy that could work for the Leafs. Timmins is also a very good NHL defenseman whose defensive coverage is actually really good. I feel like he gets a reputation of being a pure offensive defenseman just because he put up a few points, but he is no slouch defensively. It's definitely not the strongest part of his game, but it is above average. He is a good, not waiver fodder. We can also pick up a guy like Caleb Jones to help provide some more defensive coverage. I really like him as a buy low target on the free agency market. Ethan Bear could also be a nice addition, although he is out for a while. I really like him though and would be willing to wait for him. He could rotate with Timmins for the rest of the season after his return before being an every day contributor next year in place of Klingberg
The issue in moving Brodie at this point is that I really think it exposes the right side of the defense. Klingberg is a defensive liability, and as much as I like Timmins, his sample size isn't large enough to say I am comfy with moving on from Brodie now. And we know the blueline depth organizationally is terrible.
I know people hate what I suggested in an earlier ACGM - that the Leafs run a 19 man roster to accure cap space early in the season, but I still think that will play out. With Holmberg starts the season with the Marlies and Knies is sent down on off days to accure space. Only way I see this working honestly.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea. But I am not sure there is a clear path out without setting the blueline back.
I still just can't see why it should be done. I feel like everyone understates how much of a hit this blue line would take if we traded him. We literally went from a bottom-10 to a top-10 defensive team in the NHL because of his addition alone. He's the most important player, outside of the core four, on this team. And with adding Klingberg, it makes even less sense to move on from Brodie.
IMO, the team you have here resembles the 19-20 team stylistically. We used to have all offence bottom-6 forwards with Tyson Barrie and Morgan Rielly playing on the same blue line. It did not go well.
The issue in moving Brodie at this point is that I really think it exposes the right side of the defense. Klingberg is a defensive liability, and as much as I like Timmins, his sample size isn't large enough to say I am comfy with moving on from Brodie now. And we know the blueline depth organizationally is terrible.
I know people hate what I suggested in an earlier ACGM - that the Leafs run a 19 man roster to accure cap space early in the season, but I still think that will play out. With Holmberg starts the season with the Marlies and Knies is sent down on off days to accure space. Only way I see this working honestly.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea. But I am not sure there is a clear path out without setting the blueline back.
Can the Leafs accrue cap space if they are utilizing LTIR? Not overly familiar with the rules surrounding that kind of stuff, but I thought LTIR threw a bit of a fork in the road when it came to accruing cap room.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of losing Brodie. The issue is that there are very few players that can be moved to make the cap work. Waiving Timmins would be ridiculous and would certainly mark the end of his time in Toronto. Arizona moved him for an AHL grinder because they knew they would lose him to waivers. Since then, he has been productive in Toronto. His 1.1 mil is far too valuable and he is simply a good player. Plus, waiving him accomplishes nothing because we cant even carry any extra skaters. Not sure why that idea is so popular amongst Leafs fandom. I will concede that the RD depth is very spotty, but the LD makes up for it. Like I said, there is a lot of pressure on Liljegren here. Bear could be good to return somewhere between December and January which would help with that.
Murray is an anchor. This whole predicament is just extremely annoying.
I still just can't see why it should be done. I feel like everyone understates how much of a hit this blue line would take if we traded him. We literally went from a bottom-10 to a top-10 defensive team in the NHL because of his addition alone. He's the most important player, outside of the core four, on this team. And with adding Klingberg, it makes even less sense to move on from Brodie.
IMO, the team you have here resembles the 19-20 team stylistically. We used to have all offence bottom-6 forwards with Tyson Barrie and Morgan Rielly playing on the same blue line. It did not go well.
I agree with you, but who else goes? There isn't a single player that can be moved outside of the core 4 that makes this team cap compliant with extra skaters. We are in a very tough situation right now. Moving multiple guys just hurts our depth.
Timmins is gone. The moment Klingberg was signed that guys fate was sealed as why have a 1.1m #7D
PP1 = Rielly PP2 = Klingberg
Moving Brodie makes 0 sense as look at our Dman rn hes our best defensive guy. Better to move Timmins and sign Jones to rotate with Giordano
Because he isn't a 7D. Timmins has legit top 4 upside. Losing him and his contract to waivers would be a catastrophic failure for the Leafs, more so than losing 1 year of Brodie
Because he isn't a 7D. Timmins has legit top 4 upside. Losing him and his contract to waivers would be a catastrophic failure for the Leafs, more so than losing 1 year of Brodie
He really doesnt have top 4 upside. When he played for us his best traits were on the third pair and PP. With Rielly it was a disaster and once Niemela comes along its back to the third pair again
Connor Timmins, signed to a 2x$1.1M extension by TOR, is a useful defenceman to have near the bottom of the lineup. pic.twitter.com/qQC9OELi2w
Can the Leafs accrue cap space if they are utilizing LTIR? Not overly familiar with the rules surrounding that kind of stuff, but I thought LTIR threw a bit of a fork in the road when it came to accruing cap room.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of losing Brodie. The issue is that there are very few players that can be moved to make the cap work. Waiving Timmins would be ridiculous and would certainly mark the end of his time in Toronto. Arizona moved him for an AHL grinder because they knew they would lose him to waivers. Since then, he has been productive in Toronto. His 1.1 mil is far too valuable and he is simply a good player. Plus, waiving him accomplishes nothing because we cant even carry any extra skaters. Not sure why that idea is so popular amongst Leafs fandom. I will concede that the RD depth is very spotty, but the LD makes up for it. Like I said, there is a lot of pressure on Liljegren here. Bear could be good to return somewhere between December and January which would help with that.
Murray is an anchor. This whole predicament is just extremely annoying.
I am not entirely sure on how LTIR works with cap accurement either. It is like a quadratic equation.
The easiest path would be moving Muzzin's contract, or gave Muzzin retire and move into an office role (noting the later leaves money on the table).
As for Murray..... I hated the move a year ago. I hate it now. But the buyout seems eminent.
The issue is, I don't think Timmins would clear waivers. That would create a bigger problem than it solves.
Something has to give that is for sure. And I agree, annoying.
He really doesnt have top 4 upside. When he played for us his best traits were on the third pair and PP. With Rielly it was a disaster and once Niemela comes along its back to the third pair again
Connor Timmins, signed to a 2x$1.1M extension by TOR, is a useful defenceman to have near the bottom of the lineup. pic.twitter.com/qQC9OELi2w
Hes a good third pair guy but on this team we have Brodie, Klingberg, Liligren so no spot making that 1.1m an expense we should move on from
Added to the fact his PP times gone thanks to Klingberg makes little sense to keep him
Trade him for a 5th or some depth prospect and move on to a cheaper guy to rotate with Giordano like Jones
That JFresh card is outdated and relies too heavily on a small sample size, some of which includes his time in Arizona. After getting a guy games with the Leafs and playing in a more favorable system, his stats improved quite a bit. Granted, this is still based on a small sample size, but the improvement is undeniable. He is still very young and has been defensively good in nearly every level of hockey he's played in. The disrespect is unreal
He really doesnt have top 4 upside. When he played for us his best traits were on the third pair and PP. With Rielly it was a disaster and once Niemela comes along its back to the third pair again
Connor Timmins, signed to a 2x$1.1M extension by TOR, is a useful defenceman to have near the bottom of the lineup. pic.twitter.com/qQC9OELi2w
Hes a good third pair guy but on this team we have Brodie, Klingberg, Liligren so no spot making that 1.1m an expense we should move on from
Added to the fact his PP times gone thanks to Klingberg makes little sense to keep him
Trade him for a 5th or some depth prospect and move on to a cheaper guy to rotate with Giordano like Jones
Actually I agree Timmins has top 4 upside.
JFresh is useful, but what isn't in the chart is Timmins hasn't been able to stay healthy enough to have a long run of games. His sample sizes are small. But his game is 100% there.
I am sure Liligren's JFresh card would look similar after year 1.
Let me be on record as saying this:
I absolutely hate the Klingberg signing. HATE. Timmins would have been just dandy in the 2PP, and rounding out the blueline with a more physical presence for less cost would have been more prudent.
Klingberg is nothing more than a fire wagon hockey approach to the game that makes the Leafs look like they did 4 years ago. Timmins may not be as offensively talented, but his game is at least oval (not rounded, I choose my words).
If the Leafs can find a team on his trade list that can take his 5m cap cap hit. or even a retained 3.8m cap hit ....the return would be minimal.
IMO for cap reasons, Brodie and Murray are bought out. Not much of an affect this season but in 24/25, it's 4.5m of dead money.
Thanks Dubas for your lousy UFA signing (Murray and others) and your poor contract negotiations and trading off all those picks which has left the farm system barren.
JFresh is useful, but what isn't in the chart is Timmins hasn't been able to stay healthy enough to have a long run of games. His sample sizes are small. But his game is 100% there.
I am sure Liligren's JFresh card would look similar after year 1.
Let me be on record as saying this:
I absolutely hate the Klingberg signing. HATE. Timmins would have been just dandy in the 2PP, and rounding out the blueline with a more physical presence for less cost would have been more prudent.
Klingberg is nothing more than a fire wagon hockey approach to the game that makes the Leafs look like they did 4 years ago. Timmins may not be as offensively talented, but his game is at least oval (not rounded, I choose my words).
I simply think your take on Timmins is off.
Timmins really doesn't have top 4 upside. Through watching him he's like Dermott a guy people keep saying has potential for top 4 but is always best suited for third pair. Yes there's injuries but we saw whenever he was in the top 4 he struggled
And in terms of Klingberg vs Timmins Klingbergs better offensively. Pappetti highlighted that with stats from 2 years ago. This is a guy who with the leafs can give them 15 goals and 60 points while being an effective puckmoving point shot Dman.
It's been a few years, but at least there's been some big seasons from John Klingberg in the past. pic.twitter.com/a2WGuwLEwR
That JFresh card is outdated and relies too heavily on a small sample size, some of which includes his time in Arizona. After getting a guy games with the Leafs and playing in a more favorable system, his stats improved quite a bit. Granted, this is still based on a small sample size, but the improvement is undeniable. He is still very young and has been defensively good in nearly every level of hockey he's played in. The disrespect is unreal
That card was made the day he signed his 1.1m extension how is that out
That JFresh card is outdated and relies too heavily on a small sample size, some of which includes his time in Arizona. After getting a guy games with the Leafs and playing in a more favorable system, his stats improved quite a bit. Granted, this is still based on a small sample size, but the improvement is undeniable. He is still very young and has been defensively good in nearly every level of hockey he's played in. The disrespect is unreal
That card was made the day he signed his extension with us its not outdated as it was updated from when he got traded to us from Arizona. In the end Timmins was a nice third pair surprise but now he's done. With Klingberg he's got no place in the lineup and I'd to expensive to be a #7 consideringour cap situation. Trade him and move on
That card was made the day he signed his 1.1m extension how is that out
Because he played more games after being signed??? The JFresh card I linked to is the most recent one of Timmins, but some card isn't the end all be all. You also don't have to convince me about Klingberg, that is a signing I really liked. He is a great player, however so is Timmins. One being good doesn't mean the other is garbage. Both guys are good, just keep both lol
Plus, Klingberg is only signed for 1 year and if he turns out as good as we hope, he's going to be way out of our price range. This is a one and done thing; a stop gap for Niemela / potentially Bear / whoever else. Timmins is going to be an important part of our future and only makes 1.1 mil. I still dont understand why people are so fixated on moving him. It is ridiculous.
Because he played more games after being signed??? The JFresh card I linked to is the most recent one of Timmins, but some card isn't the end all be all. You also don't have to convince me about Klingberg, that is a signing I really liked. He is a great player, however so is Timmins. One being good doesn't mean the other is garbage. Both guys are good, just keep both lol
Plus, Klingberg is only signed for 1 year and if he turns out as good as we hope, he's going to be way out of our price range. This is a one and done thing; a stop gap for Niemela / potentially Bear / whoever else. Timmins is going to be an important part of our future and only makes 1.1 mil. I still dont understand why people are so fixated on moving him. It is ridiculous.
Timmins is expendable that's really it. He's not a fixture to this team and his roles gone. We need to clear cap after murray that's the guy.
As why have a 1.1m #7 answer u don't with this team
As even if Klingberg goes look at the UFA TD options available next summer
Timmins is expendable that's really it. He's not a fixture to this team and his roles gone. We need to clear cap after murray that's the guy.
As why have a 1.1m #7 answer u don't with this team
As even if Klingberg goes look at the UFA TD options available next summer
Demelo, Roy, Pesce, etc
Alright, so lets say this is the case. Leafs buy out Murray and get rid of Timmins cap hit. That leaves us with 3.5 mil in cap space. Samsonov is supposedly seeking 4 mil. Even if we get him down to 3.5 mil, we only have a 20 man roster. In what world does that make any sense? We are now down 1 NHL caliber defenseman and have an identical roster. By moving Timmins, we are putting ourselves in a worse situation. Losing Brodie is a huge loss, but its a hole that can be filled using the additional cap space. Making a guy that only makes 1.1 mil the scapegoat for a cap move is just ridiculous, especially when the guy we are talking about moving is a pending UFA on the wrong side of 30 whose footspeed is getting worse and is not effective at breaking out. Give me Timmins all day. At this point, Gio is the 7D IMO. Unless he continues to be a god that is
- Sign Samsonov to $3.5m or less
- Buy out Murray
- Trade Jarnkrok for a pick
- Waive Timmins and Lafferty (maybe they get claimed)
- Sign 3 minimum salary players, such as Motte, Aston-Reese, Edler
- Sign Samsonov to $3.5m or less
- Buy out Murray
- Trade Jarnkrok for a pick
- Waive Timmins and Lafferty (maybe they get claimed)
- Sign 3 minimum salary players, such as Motte, Aston-Reese, Edler
Alright, so lets say this is the case. Leafs buy out Murray and get rid of Timmins cap hit. That leaves us with 3.5 mil in cap space. Samsonov is supposedly seeking 4 mil. Even if we get him down to 3.5 mil, we only have a 20 man roster. In what world does that make any sense? We are now down 1 NHL caliber defenseman and have an identical roster. By moving Timmins, we are putting ourselves in a worse situation. Losing Brodie is a huge loss, but its a hole that can be filled using the additional cap space. Making a guy that only makes 1.1 mil the scapegoat for a cap move is just ridiculous, especially when the guy we are talking about moving is a pending UFA on the wrong side of 30 whose footspeed is getting worse and is not effective at breaking out. Give me Timmins all day. At this point, Gio is the 7D IMO. Unless he continues to be a god that is
Arbitration will probs give him 3.5 x 2 years problem solved. Sammy wasn't gonna make 4 even if we moved Murray's entire deal leafs will probs go 1 to 2 years in the mid 3 range then longer next year
Moving Brodie makes 0 sense considering our Dcores construction. He's our best defensive D. Nobody in FA is an upgrade. Dumba nope, Bear nope, etc. Moving him would weaken us bad and make Sammy's life a living hell
And let's be real Gio ain't the 7th guy consistently Brodie will be with Rielly Klingberg with McCabe and Liligren with Giordano. Unless we moving timmins to sign Jones to rotate with gio he's not coming out especially with Keefe and Treliving
The issue in moving Brodie at this point is that I really think it exposes the right side of the defense. Klingberg is a defensive liability, and as much as I like Timmins, his sample size isn't large enough to say I am comfy with moving on from Brodie now. And we know the blueline depth organizationally is terrible.
I know people hate what I suggested in an earlier ACGM - that the Leafs run a 19 man roster to accure cap space early in the season, but I still think that will play out. With Holmberg starts the season with the Marlies and Knies is sent down on off days to accure space. Only way I see this working honestly.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea. But I am not sure there is a clear path out without setting the blueline back.
Can't accrue cap space we are in LTIR next season with Muzzin's contract. It's all cash in cash out unless we move him. It kinda makes sense why tampa's trade deadline moves look insane cause they've been riding Seabrook's contract for the past couple years.
I agree with you, but who else goes? There isn't a single player that can be moved outside of the core 4 that makes this team cap compliant with extra skaters. We are in a very tough situation right now. Moving multiple guys just hurts our depth.
Moving to a 20 man roster and buying Murray out... sign Sammy to a 3.2/2
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