Reasonable? Have we learned nothing from Hall for Larsson? Pesce is not worth Nylander and Skjei doesn't help us because we don't need more LHD

If you look at the team before and after we're not only improved, but have also addressed our cap issues. I should say that both Skjei and Pesce would be signed long term in this scenario, two players who could form a legitimate top piar for us; Pesce as our Muzzin replacement and Skjei as a player with size and mobility who scored 18 goals last year. The Leafs are a better team after this trade.

Not really. How are we going to replace Nylanders 80 points? Knies won't be anywhere near that and Robertson is never healthy. Brodie had a 90th percentile among RD in 5v5 defensive impact, his role is to constantly bail out Mo for his defensive mistakes and he plays a high QoC. I absolutely do not trust Pesce in that role. He plays in a very good defensive system where their top 4 are deployed equally, Keefe's system is much different. I have no idea where this narrative came about that we need to move Brodie.

A DFD will never be worth a ppg player. This website has also spun a weird narrative that somehow that's become the case.

Hate to sound like a broken record but the last time we got a star forward for a DFD we got Hall for Larsson. Not trying to replicate that and I think GM's learned from that. Thankfully.

I understand where you’re coming from but the biggest issues for Toronto getting into the 2nd and 3rd round get solved with this trade! 22-25 min a night from that top pair D would give your team a better chance at winning and it’s not like both those D don’t provide decent Offense as well!

But yea I’d want a little more when giving up Nylander too.

This team will be more offensively productive than the same team this time last year; if you take the time to check and you disagree then you're evaluation is off. Not only would we be more offensively productive, we'd also be better defensively upfront and on the backend, would have a bigger, more mobile defense core that contribute considerably more offense while helping to slot other D-men around them more appropriately.

We are dealing from a position of strength; one further strengthened by additions like Bertuzzi, Domi and Knies, all of whom are capable of playing in our top 6. This allows us to piece together one of the best defensive groups in the league to go along with one of the best top 6 in the league, including a tavares line that may find more chemistry with the playstyles of Bertuzzi and Knies, and more offensive production from the backend with guys like Klingberg and Skjei.

You want to oversimplify this trade to present it as a star winger for a DFD, which is an incredibly short-sighted and disingenuous evaluation of the trade offer I proposed.

You can make argument that leafs squad needs to be structured differently (I don’t agree but to each their own), but leafs are not getting equal value back…Nylander is by far the best player in the trade, and most valuable piece by a long distance. All 4 are pending FAs so term is non factor. Leafs are a worse team post trade so why would they do this ?

Your comment is reasonable until you say we're a worst team post trade. This trade makes our team better now (and into the future if all these moves are contingent on long-term contracts), but certainly now. The signings of Domi and Bertuzzi have allowed us to divert more of our cap to a weak D core. That said, maybe we could get more in return, I just wanted to show what we could get to improve our team period, everything else is the cherry on top.

Skjei scored double digits literally once in his career. And also shot a career high of 9, which is high for him. You're going to bank on him scoring 18 again? Doubt it. It was an outlier season.
Pesce is good, but Brodie is equally good defensively and faces a harder quality of comp. Like MitchJr said, both are expiring so what does it even matter? Just keep our guy.

Bert replaces Bunting, Domi for Kerfoot, but who replaces Nylander's 80 points? This move does not at all make us more offensively productive when you're taking away one of the biggest pieces in our top 6, and replacing him with a 2RHD and a dream of "he might score 18 again"

"You want to oversimplify this trade to present it as a star winger for a DFD, which is an incredibly short-sighted and disingenuous evaluation of the trade offer I proposed."
Right, because that's exactly what it is. But thankfully, Treliving is at least smarter than this.

The money we'd use on keeping Pesce and Skjei can be used to just keep Nylander lmfao.

Our main problem was Matthews and Marner going ghost in the second round. We were great defensively against Tampa (if you don't factor in how many goals Holl cause lmfao).

2022,

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Nylander-Tavares-Malgin
Engvall-Kerfoot-Jarnkrok
AstonReese-Kampf-AubeKubel

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin (gone)-Holl (gone)
Giordano-Sandin

vs

2023

Domi-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Tavares-Bertuzzi
Comtois-Toews-Järnkrok
Leivo- Kämpf-Reaves

Skjei - Pesce
Rielly - Peeke
McCabe- Klingberg

Our main reason for success was offense from the back end and locking it down when we needed to. That 2023 team is better and is under the cap, versus our current roster that has has its defensive core depleted and is over the cap. Start thinking big picture, the latter is a team who is built to win the cup. I am a Treliving believer; if you can't see how his moves point to trading Willy then I think you're blind....

Our defensive core didn't deplete, we got rid of Justin Holl, who was an absolute catastrophe in the playoffs. You watched them, right..? Klingberg was a signing because Mo can't be our only puck mover and we need a PP2 specialist who takes shots from the point. We also suck with exit passes, which is what Klingberg is for.
Muzzin played 4 games last season I don't know why you're including him there.

What it gods name is that bottom 6? Toews? Dude... hes ancient and going to retire. Josh Leivo? The 4th liner used to have that sucked? No Robertson, Holmberg, or even Mcmann? Lmfao.
Comtois is also likely involved in the WJC incident which is why he's still unsigned. Even then, you have him on the 3rd line which is a line higher than he should be

We're not trading a ppg player and one of our best defensive defenseman for two more defensemen back, one of which shot a career high of 18 goals one single time.
It's obvious you're either trolling or are just building teams in franchise mode lmfao. But I'm blind, yeah

Our defensive core didn't deplete? As you said yourself, our best defensive D man is no longer available in muzzin and we have yet to replace him. The player who found success with him in a shutdown role was noticeably exposed with our bargain bin replacement Jake McCabe. Gio and Holl got noticeably exposed in the playoffs; one left for nothing, the other just turned 40. Our second best defenseman was a 33 year old career bottom pair luke Schenn who also walked for nothing.

Nylander was far from our best forward, and was probably the 4th most important forward during the playoffs at best. Pesce and Skjei were the shutdown pair for a team that went to the conference final.

I'm still trying to figure out if you're an actual Toronto fan or if you're just trolling, because none of what you've said has been right.

Our best DFD by far has been Brodie. 90th percentile 5v5 defensive impact and is a great anchor for Mo. McCabe is also not a bargain bin replacement, that would be Schenn. Keefe trusted Schenn more than Brodie, but that's not Brodie's fault.

Nylander, in fact, was our best forward among the big 4. Matthews and Marner were ghosts in the second round, Nylander was the only one trying. Why are you so keen on getting rid of his production for 2nd pair defenders? And in your other GM, you gave Comtois 2m. Yeah, we're cap strapped to hell so let's overpay for another bust 4th line player.

Brother, I say this respectfully, you have 0 idea what you're talking about lmfao.

Our best defensive D pair was Muzzin and Brodie, McCabe replaced Brodie and they noticeably struggled round 2. Brodie and Mo didn't even play together dough head.

Nylander was not our best forward among the top 4, like wtf do you even have to support that claim even if ignoring the fact he was by far the worst defensive forward on the team? 2 mil for a 24 year old who scored at roughly .6 ppg two years ago on an awful team is worse than 10 mil for Willy? Bringing up the fact we're cap strapped while arguing for keeping Willy, that's rich. You're delusional...

Muzzin played 4 games this past season, and he spent those games playing with Holl, not Brodie. have you been drinking or are you just not a Toronto fan?

2023 PLAYOFF STATS FOR THE BIG 4:
Matthews: 5 goals (0 in round 2)
Marner: 14 points (1 in round 2)
Nylander: 10 points (3 in round two)
Tavares: 8 points (1 in round 2)

On top of the lacking point totals, Nylander was the only one who actually put in effort and essentially had to carry Matthews on his back each game. I'm not going to trade the only one of them who actually looked like he wanted to win the series. You don't need him to be elite defensively when he's scoring 40 goals. That's not his job. Our issue isn't defense, it's Matthews and Marner lacking effort and sucking in the playoffs. Yes, if you're capped strapped, you still find ways to keep your 40 goal scoring winger, not hand out 2m like candy to a 4th liner.

That 24 year old who scored at a .6ppg pace TWO YEARS AGO BY THE WAY is unsigned because he's being investigated and likely involved with s*xual assault. He also just sucks. Why are you just handing him 2m?
You signed Toews but he's like a shell of his former self and can't skate anymore. And is NOT good defensively like you think. Plus, after the Chicago ordeal and how that team was quick to wipe their hands with him and start fresh, you want to bring that here? Really?

Good lord. Thank god you're here and not in the big office.
I'll say what I said in the other post. You scrounged the thrift aisle in free agency and hand crafted one of the worst bottom 6's among contending teams then justify it by removing an 80 point player for two second pairing defenseman. This team is worse. None of these moves help us.

Like this is what you replaced Nylander with. You gotta be trolling bro theres no way

Lol, let's make it simple here for you:

Nylander was 4th in PPG.
Nylander was tied for 5th in ES PPG with ROR and Tavares, two players playing more important roles, and behind Knies, a rookie.
Nylander had the worst goal differential of any forward on the team despite being spotted offensive zone starts because he is that bad defensively.
Nylander posted 0.55 ES PPG, had two goals scored from distance on the man advantage against tampa, a lucky bounce off the ref for his 3rd, and a weak one shortside for his 4th.
Max Domi posted a 0.68 ES PPG during last years playoffs on his run to the conference final
Bertuzzi scored 0.57 ES PPG and had 10 points in 7 games
Klingberg had 0.75 ES PPG and 4 points in 4 games.

Yes, he looks pretty when he skates around the perimeter as opposing teams are happy to let him do, you have no leg to stand on beyond that. Those are not the players replacing him; Bertuzzi, Domi and Knies are replacing Bunting, Willy, and Jarnkrok, Comtois (obviously pending this investigation), Toews and Jarnkrok are replacing Kerfoot, Kampf and Engvall, Kampf can go down to center the 4th line with two somewhat consistent players.

We're also replacing Brodie (one year left and beginning to age), Muzzin (can't play again), Holl (walked for nothing), and Liljegren (has shown nothing jaw-droppingly special to this point), with; Pesce (a top shutdown defenseman we can sign long term to replace muzz), Skjei (the compliment to that shutdown line who scored 18 goals last season, most of them ES, to form a top shutdown pair that has size, mobility, offensive and defensive acumen to upgrade on Brodie), Peeke, who can play the role of defensive D that has always complimented Rielly so well, is a great skater and puck mover, and is young and cheap, and Klingberg, who not so long ago played huge minutes for a Stars team that made it to the cup final and can bring some much needed offense to the backend paired with McCabe, who goes from being tasked with top shutdown minutes to 3rd pair minutes in a role where he's not asked to do too much.

Our defense core is clearly better compared to this time last year.

I would also say our forward core is clearly better than this time last year.

Our goaltending is clearly better than this time last year.

And most of all, this is a team structured for the playoffs....

Not to mention Gio and Timmins waiting in the weeds at D, along with Robertson and McCann ready to go at forward; players who can be legitimate contributors to this team. Exactly how does this make our bottom 6 worse than where its stand now?

As a Leafs fan, I've spent 7 years watching the experiment the other way, Tre is a smart man and has acknowledged his intent to upgrade the D. Nylander as the trade chip is glaringly obvious to everyone but you apparently....

Just because a bunch of idiot Leaf fans parrot trading Nylander, doesn't make it a good move. Yes, I'm reluctant to move a 40g player.



I don't know why you showed a bunch of ES PPG stats from those players just to say they replaced the depth guys we lost. To which, you still haven't answered. who makes up for Nylanders production? What about Matthews goal differential... or, his whopping 0 goals per say? Are you going to trade Marner for Parayko next just because Marner scored 1 point in the second round? Our issue wasn't defense, it was a lack of scoring. We literally couldn't score, doesn't mean we should trade anyone in the big 4 for some overrated DFD's that would likely collapse in Keefe's system. You've failed to address that.



The only true statement here is that the defense got better. The bottom 6 you've magically brewed in a potion of bargain bin players is quite literally abysmal. And you removed an 80 point player and replaced him with a bunch of crappy bottom 6 guys to fix an issue we didn't have. Good lord. You can't slap Jonny Toews as our 3C then say we're structured for the playoffs LOL



So then why not just play Robertson and McMann* (not McCann) instead of electing to sign dinosaur toews and 2m to a terrible comtois?

And where are you hearing any of this lol. Brad had stated in an interview prior to July 1st that he was looking to add depth scoring and depth on the back end, which he addressed by adding Domi, Bert, and Klingberg. There's no news about him pushing to move any one of the big 4 just to bring in a defenseman. This is all fodder from people on capfriendly. You gotta watch for another 7 years man you are LOST.

Calling me delusional because I'm opting to keep a ppg forward rather than trading him for this sites most overrated DFD as if the hockey world has learned NOTHING from the Hall for Larson trade. Not even mentioning you traded Brodie after how good he was last year. Let me guess, you were among the people thinking we should just buy him out, right?

Your takes are comical. Have a good night and make sure not to drive when drinking,

@RipNasty If there's one thing you and I can agree on, is how overrated Pesce is and how any trade involving him and Nylander is a death sentence

Well, it’s a good thing the Canes don’t consider this then.

Yes I watched Justin Holl struggle in the playoffs, just like I watched Brodie, McCabe, Gio and Lily struggle... We lost Muzzin and thought McCabe could fill that role seamlessly, which clearly was not the case. I watched our second highest scoring defenseman score 3 assists throughout the entire playoffs. I watched Luke Schenn be our 2nd best D man in the postseason, then watched him walk for nothing. Our D got shredded against Florida, anyone who couldn't see that is completely blind.

As I said before, the value might not be spot on and maybe we could get picks in return to flip elsewhere, I am simply completing realistic trades that could improve our roster today. Skjei and Pesce form the top shutdown pair for one of the best defensive teams in the league; both have size, can skate, can move the puck and win battles down low. Each D pair is very solid, and you have Gio and Timmins waiting in the wings. We'd been in contention for a top 5 D core in the league with this group.

That top 6 is still elite as well and we might finally address the chemistry issues between Willy and Tavares. That means we can deal from a position of strength to address a position of weakness, the D.

As for the 3rd line, Toews is a zero risk bet as a guy who's been recovering from long covid and put of 31 points in 53 games last year on a bad blackhawks team. And no, he didn't forget how to play defense all of a sudden. Jarnkrok on that line brings 2 players who can play both ways, and Comtois is a guy who has shown good skills but has been stuck on a mediocre team, he's someone who can create space and retrieve pucks while being capable of adding offense as well. If he's involved with anything like that then of course we go nowhere near him, but let's allow things to playout first.

The funny thing is that none of these moves mean McMann, Holmberg and Robertson can't be on the roster, it just means they have to earn their spots, instead of Holmberg immediately going to 3C and Robertson to Tavares' wing due to our lack of depth.

There is no roster you can create without trading Nylander that is better than this, end of story.

Why is that?

The biggest issue for Toronto in the playoffs has been producing goals/offence (went 7 straight games this playoffs with two goals or less en route to elimination) and Nylander has been our best and most consistent guy for that over the last 3 years.

People keep saying this like they don't realize we're always the team to have more cap invested in our forwards than our opponents. Put together a collection of elimination games from any playoff series and most will be low scoring affairs. That's why teams talk about building from the net out and being able to win those 2-1 games. The formula has been rubbed in our faces over and over again and yet we still continue to double down on this theory despite our failures.

How did we win our first elimination game in 19 years? We played a perfect defensive checking game and waited for our chance. How many goals did we need to win? Two, one in overtime. We probably would have won 1-0 if not for an egregious error by WIly as well.

As for your last point, this couldn't be further from the truth... Over that 7 game stretch Nylander had 2 goals, one a fluky bounce off the ref to leave him alone in front, the other a turnover he was able to skate on to and score what was a rare softie short-side on Bob. Over that 7 game stretch he had a -7 goal differential despite being sheltered from the top two matchups and often starting in the offensive zone.

Marner, Matthews and Rielly have all been better of the last 3 years, as were ROR and Knies in his short stint last year.

The Knights of Nylander are truly a loyal bunch...