Actually, I think it is meaningfully different. Assuming OTT paid his Zaitsev's signing bonus and half of his salary for last season, that's $5.75mm the Hawks assumed for taking on the balance of his contract - for a 2nd and a 4th.

This deal (if made now) contemplates the Hawks assuming $9.3mm in cash layout for Joseph (60% more) and giving them Katchouk (who also has value) - for a 2nd, alone.

That's a meaningful enough difference, IMO, to warrant considerably sweetening the deal for the Hawks.

Yes it is, which is a big factor in why I am saying two 2nds or a 1st is the price.

Chicago took Zaitsev and his $4.5m cap hit for 1 1-4 seasons; a total of $5.65m at a time when the Sens didn’t have to make a trade and Ottawa sent a 2nd and 4th along with him.

Now the Sens are up against the cap, want to sign Pinto and this poster offers Joseph, a 2nd and wants asset back in return, it doesn’t make sense. Joseph is on the books for three more seasons with a cap hit of $2.9m and a total cash payout of $9.3m.

Now Sens fans are going to say Joseph is a useful player and therefore not a cap dump… guess what, when you move a player because you need cap space, said player is a cap dump. The cost of moving him is dependent on how badly the acquiring team wants him. When the Hawks acquired Hall, he was a cap dump to Boston that the Hawks really wanted, so the cost was minimal; the negotiating rights to Foligno. In Joseph’s case he is just another guy to battle for a bottom six role and therefore holds no value to Chicago. The true value for the Hawks lies in the assets they can get Ottawa to cough up to move Joseph.

Again, SnowHawk... great minds! {:- )

Patches doesn't like the trade either, so it's 9-3.

Just 6 more.

You're almost there.

well, its obvious he is a cap dump, thats why there is asset coming back. not all cap dumpcs are equal too and you gave up a good example. i would say zaitsev is way less usefull than joseph too. maybe you get a little more out of the trade, but a first is very unlikely.

true, he cost more. they could also buy him out bext year and save a lot of money if thats the main problem. u would argue that joseph is more usefull than zaitsev too, so it balance things a bit out. but maybe chicago could get more, but a first in unlikely.

Really how useful will he be to the Hawks, they literally have a dozen guys already competing for the bottom six forward positions? He would at best be a minimal upgrade over anyone he beats out for a job which to a bottom five team is meaningless.

I think OTT's cap crunch is real right now - this year? Signing Tank set the stage for all this discussion.

If a first is unlikely (and I understand, of course, that it might be), then perhaps OTT could throw Thomson into the deal? As I offered earlier in this thread, that could open up a lot more possibilities/options beyond a mere discussion of draft picks. Cheers

And... Regardless of how useful Joseph is, he'll likely be long gone by the time the Hawks are again contenders. Regardless of whatever value Joseph offers as a player, his value to the Hawks is contained in whatever futures accompany him. And unfortunately for OTT, there are darn few contenders who have any room, at all!

deal. I'd send you Joseph for a couple of 2nd round picks

Yet, we do not know that it is not happening because Joseph is viewed as a big part of the Sens team and it is entirely possible if not probable, that the Sens management is trying to figure out a way to keep him.

You are also acting like he is a washed up 30+ year old with no more potential, rather than a 26 who skates like the wind, is an incredibly solid penalty killer and could very well score 40-50+ points in a fully healthy year with opportunity.

If he is a cap dump, then a lot of other players in this league are cap dumps.

A player is only cap dump if they are moved because the team trading them values the cap space more than the player, to this point Joseph does not fit that criteria.

It’s funny Sens fans get all bent out of shape when I say I wouldn’t take Joseph for less then a 1st round pick or two 2nd round picks, I’m not saying he can’t be useful, I am merely saying he is not a player I look at and say if he is available then Davidson absolutely has to go out and get him. At best Joseph would be a minor upgrade for the bottom two lines which does nothing as far as making the team significantly better. The Hawks are a bottom 5/6 team with or without Joseph.

At this point in the Hawks rebuild it is essential that Chicago maximizes their return on trading their cap space, acquiring young cost controlled impactful assets; those assets for the most part are acquired through the draft, so as I have stated many times in order for Chicago to take on a $3m player for the next three season and pay that player $9.3m in actual $$$ the Senators have to pay a hefty price. Capfriendly itself tweeted a couple weeks back that $5m in cap space is the going rate for a 1st round pick, now since this situation is $3m per season, $9m over the remaining term we can debate whether Joseph’s contract falls into that compensation class but that is why I am saying the Hawks should accept two 2nds as an alternative or potentially one 2nd and a solid prospect. Regardless, the rates have been set with prior trades and I think you will be hard pressed to find too many instances of a team taking on similar camp dumps/players they don’t really need for one 2nd round pick or heaven for bid actually give away assets for them. Given the current salary cap climate I am comfortable saying it is very unlikely to happen.

As a player with 5 partial years in the league Joseph is what he has shown himself to be, a fourth line winger who can bump up to the third in a pinch. An energy guy who can be used as a PK rotational piece. To expect a player who to this point at 26 years old to jump from the 28 points per 82 game player to 50 - 60 points is very unrealistic, if he had that potential he would still be in Tampa.

It is important to remember that Joseph was traded for Paul, who is a very good player and he was the main part of that return. The Sens were banking on that potential.

Also considering Joseph's cap dump value is tough because as you said 5m in cap space is a 1st round in value. However, his contract is going to continue when the salary cap explodes meaning that his contract will become a steal in 1 to 2 years time when 3rd and 4th liners are regularly paid that much.

All things considered, if he is dumped, there will probably be compensation, but not as much for a player with a higher AAV and less use.