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50Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 5 - TDL additions (Go Big or Go Small)

Mar. 17 at 10:12 p.m.
#1026
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Quoting: CameronSquires
Who do we replace him with?


If you fired him today then Guy Boucher as an interim till the summer.

You can throw any stats you want to justify his decisions but you cannot deny he has been out coached in every single playoff series he's been in. The fact that the "issues" we bring up are always special teams, defensive structure, transition these are systems that are implemented by the coach. Florida and Boston have significantly worse rosters on paper but they have systems that work. Toronto doesn't and never has under Keefe.
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Mar. 18 at 12:33 a.m.
#1027
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Edited Mar. 18 at 12:43 a.m.
Quoting: fangm
If you fired him today then Guy Boucher as an interim till the summer.

You can throw any stats you want to justify his decisions but you cannot deny he has been out coached in every single playoff series he's been in. The fact that the "issues" we bring up are always special teams, defensive structure, transition these are systems that are implemented by the coach. Florida and Boston have significantly worse rosters on paper but they have systems that work. Toronto doesn't and never has under Keefe.


Well put.
Adding the no adjustments to your list is just another reason why he isn't the coach that will inspire this team to do the things needed to win, especially in the playoffs.

Edit: I'll even add consistency in effort to the list. They have streches where it looks like they can beat anyone and then have streches where they can't beat anyone.
Mar. 18 at 9:38 a.m.
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Quoting: oneX
Well put.
Adding the no adjustments to your list is just another reason why he isn't the coach that will inspire this team to do the things needed to win, especially in the playoffs.

Edit: I'll even add consistency in effort to the list. They have streches where it looks like they can beat anyone and then have streches where they can't beat anyone.


While I don't hate on Keefe to the same extent as some...I definitely agree with the lack of adjusting.

On the one hand...I do feel you need to give certain combos 3 or so games to see if they work. I find whenever he does try something new...it's for 1 game or 1 period....but that's what the first half of the season should be for.

As for the Power Play...again...it's an adjustment thing. Way too simplistic a reaction by some here to say it's simply getting cold...need to get Matthews the puck...guy just need to step up, etc...our PP was absolute fire last month...and teams scout that, prep for it, and scheme up ways to take away the same looks that we had been getting.

Marner being out definitely hurts because he facilitates so well....but there needs to be adjustments....when you see the other coach is taking away what used to be your Plan A....don't keep relying on Plan A...for me, I see Rielly and Nylander looking to tee Matthews up but either the passing lane to him is clogged up or he's forced to receive the pass in a spot where he can't get a good shot off...so move guys around...do something different...then go back to Plan A or Plan C when more adjustments come your way.
Mar. 18 at 10:32 a.m.
#1029
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Quoting: Juice
While I don't hate on Keefe to the same extent as some...I definitely agree with the lack of adjusting.

On the one hand...I do feel you need to give certain combos 3 or so games to see if they work. I find whenever he does try something new...it's for 1 game or 1 period....but that's what the first half of the season should be for.

As for the Power Play...again...it's an adjustment thing. Way too simplistic a reaction by some here to say it's simply getting cold...need to get Matthews the puck...guy just need to step up, etc...our PP was absolute fire last month...and teams scout that, prep for it, and scheme up ways to take away the same looks that we had been getting.

Marner being out definitely hurts because he facilitates so well....but there needs to be adjustments....when you see the other coach is taking away what used to be your Plan A....don't keep relying on Plan A...for me, I see Rielly and Nylander looking to tee Matthews up but either the passing lane to him is clogged up or he's forced to receive the pass in a spot where he can't get a good shot off...so move guys around...do something different...then go back to Plan A or Plan C when more adjustments come your way.


I don't hate Keefe.

From listening to Kyper and Bourne, (Bourne worked on Keefe's staff in the Marlies) it seems that Keefe is not a special teams guy and isn't great at managing personalities.

To me those are two key things that this team needs.

I also think that people forget that the only GM Keefe has ever worked under for more than a season is Dubas (in the OHL, AHL or NHL).

A hallmark of Dubas teams is a focus on offense and lack of defense. That's just how he believed teams should be built. So Keefe has never had to build a defensively solid team cause especially in the OHL and AHL if you have the best offensive players you can win games. The skill gap is bigger so that strategy works.

I think Keefe could leave, go to a Pittsburgh in a few years and do well with a young core where the rookies respect him as a veteran coach, where he can work with Dubas to get D who are solid in their end but can play Keefe's possession based quick transition system.

I just don't think that these players who are already bigger than the coach have anything left to gain from working with him.

Boucher is there and can see out the season. After that I'd look to bring in Berube or some hard nosed coach who might not last long (those guys tend to lose the room after a few years) but can see out the rest of the Matthew contract and are confident enough in their abilities that we could bring in Boudreau as an assistant to help the special teams without him feeling like his replacement is looking over him.

Just my $0.02.
Mar. 18 at 11:12 a.m.
#1030
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Rob Brind'amour is available in the summer
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Mar. 18 at 11:34 a.m.
#1031
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Quoting: aadoyle
For people who asked why Matthews was out final min of game

This is why

GHfwzPaWgAAxdxw?format=png&name=medium

https://twitter.com/EvolvingWild/status/1763142549147910555

Results werent what was wanted but when this guy is performing this well at both ends hes out there final min unless hurt


I would have gone Matthews-Kampf over Matthews-Dewar

Seems like Dewar's nervous and it doesn't work if Matthews is up top as he's the best at intercepting passes
Mar. 18 at 11:39 a.m.
#1032
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Quoting: fangm
If you fired him today then Guy Boucher as an interim till the summer.

You can throw any stats you want to justify his decisions but you cannot deny he has been out coached in every single playoff series he's been in. The fact that the "issues" we bring up are always special teams, defensive structure, transition these are systems that are implemented by the coach. Florida and Boston have significantly worse rosters on paper but they have systems that work. Toronto doesn't and never has under Keefe.


He outreached Cooper x2, the MTL coach in 21 and Maurice objectively... lol... They won noe of the TBL series by outplaying TBL and they got Brobrovskied/Priced in RD 1/RD 2...

And I'd argue the other TBL series that they lost was their best in a long time

The only time where he was outcoached was when he was interim vs Torts

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/carey-price-playoff-stats-vs-maple-leafs
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/sergei-bobrovsky-playoff-stats-vs-maple-leafs

IMO, wait for your guy and keep Keefe...

Get one of your analytics guys to become adjustments coach that feeds Keefe info on the teams and advises him on what adjustments he should make if any
Mar. 18 at 11:46 a.m.
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Quoting: Juice
While I don't hate on Keefe to the same extent as some...I definitely agree with the lack of adjusting.

On the one hand...I do feel you need to give certain combos 3 or so games to see if they work. I find whenever he does try something new...it's for 1 game or 1 period....but that's what the first half of the season should be for.

As for the Power Play...again...it's an adjustment thing. Way too simplistic a reaction by some here to say it's simply getting cold...need to get Matthews the puck...guy just need to step up, etc...our PP was absolute fire last month...and teams scout that, prep for it, and scheme up ways to take away the same looks that we had been getting.

Marner being out definitely hurts because he facilitates so well....but there needs to be adjustments....when you see the other coach is taking away what used to be your Plan A....don't keep relying on Plan A...for me, I see Rielly and Nylander looking to tee Matthews up but either the passing lane to him is clogged up or he's forced to receive the pass in a spot where he can't get a good shot off...so move guys around...do something different...then go back to Plan A or Plan C when more adjustments come your way.


You have 9 guys in the analytics department... Tell one or more of them to watch the game analytically and help Keefe via analytics, it's simple

Guess who's the special teams coach and is taking the flack for the lack of adjustments? Boucher

I think having multiple lines being all lefties hurts as well

In the top 9, you have: Matthews (Lefty), Nylander (Righty), Bert (Lefty), JT (Lefty), Domi (Lefty), Knies (Lefty), Holmberg (Lefty), Robertson (Lefty) and McMann (Lefty) filling when needed

8 lefties to 1 righty is an issue and why Jarnkrok playing with Matthews and Bert worked so well with the other lines...
Mar. 18 at 12:13 p.m.
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How do much do you guys think Monahan will fetch?

4 million per? 4 years?
Mar. 18 at 12:23 p.m.
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Quoting: Trickster
Rob Brind'amour is available in the summer


Friedman made it seem like his extension was close (or at least agreed to in principle but Rod wanted assurances that his assistants were going to be take care of as well)....

but he'd be my number 1 choice as well. Seems hard nosed enough to demand our young stars to take accountability but young enough and played at a high level not too long ago to be respected and relatable.
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Mar. 18 at 12:28 p.m.
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
You have 9 guys in the analytics department... Tell one or more of them to watch the game analytically and help Keefe via analytics, it's simple

Guess who's the special teams coach and is taking the flack for the lack of adjustments? Boucher

I think having multiple lines being all lefties hurts as well

In the top 9, you have: Matthews (Lefty), Nylander (Righty), Bert (Lefty), JT (Lefty), Domi (Lefty), Knies (Lefty), Holmberg (Lefty), Robertson (Lefty) and McMann (Lefty) filling when needed

8 lefties to 1 righty is an issue and why Jarnkrok playing with Matthews and Bert worked so well with the other lines...


So...if I said the analytics guys are giving them the data but, when it's crunch time, Keefe ignores it and goes with his gut...fire him...it's simple.

Does that make me right just because I added "it's simple"?

Also...the inconsistencies on the power play pre-date Boucher...so we can keep going back and blame the assistant running special teams or...at some point...you need to look to the guy who's accountable for the staff and holding the players responsible, too.

I'm not hollering for him to be fired immediately...but I'm not glossing over his glaring shortcomings, either.
Mar. 18 at 12:32 p.m.
#1037
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Quoting: Trickster
How do much do you guys think Monahan will fetch?

4 million per? 4 years?


Probably a little more, maybe? Obviously depends on term and which team...but the UFA list is pretty thin at quality Centres so could see it get to 5-5.5 for a team desperate for a 2C...maybe he takes less to go/stay on a contender.
Mar. 18 at 12:43 p.m.
#1038
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I
Quoting: Juice
Probably a little more, maybe? Obviously depends on term and which team...but the UFA list is pretty thin at quality Centres so could see it get to 5-5.5 for a team desperate for a 2C...maybe he takes less to go/stay on a contender.


I was thinking of fit for Leafs, anything north 4.5 seems too rich to me mostly because I want prioritize a 1st and 2nd pair D add on before a 2C/3C.
Mar. 18 at 1:07 p.m.
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Quoting: Trickster
How do much do you guys think Monahan will fetch?

4 million per? 4 years?


Monahan really dont fit what the leafs should be wanting to go for this summer.

They basically have their 4 centers with a 5th pushing for a job potentially out of TC again
Mar. 18 at 1:13 p.m.
#1040
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Quoting: Juice
So...if I said the analytics guys are giving them the data but, when it's crunch time, Keefe ignores it and goes with his gut...fire him...it's simple.

Does that make me right just because I added "it's simple"?

Also...the inconsistencies on the power play pre-date Boucher...so we can keep going back and blame the assistant running special teams or...at some point...you need to look to the guy who's accountable for the staff and holding the players responsible, too.

I'm not hollering for him to be fired immediately...but I'm not glossing over his glaring shortcomings, either.


Yep PP has been a on/off problem since the Matthews era started

It almost always seems to be getting cold around this time

No one knows why or how but it does. Now rn its not as bad as when we were in the Canadian division but its a bit concerning when u got Matthews, Nylander, and JT and the PP this month = 4.5%


We can say fire ABC but through 4 years Leafs have went through 3 PP coaches and it has not changed much

Malhotra, Carbery, and now Boucher

And what really highlights the problem currently is the fact the PK is struggling to. When both together struggle the problem is amplified. If the PK was at 80% people would be going well at least thats clicking but so far not the case

While Marner being out can be viewed as a factor if one guy makes a PP go from 4.5% to 50% even with the other big 3 were ****ed lul. Timmins coming back though does present an opportunity to try 11-7 to shelter him for mainly PP duty as thats where he shines and maybe he can help for a bit
Mar. 18 at 1:26 p.m.
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Quoting: Juice
So...if I said the analytics guys are giving them the data but, when it's crunch time, Keefe ignores it and goes with his gut...fire him...it's simple.

Does that make me right just because I added "it's simple"?

Also...the inconsistencies on the power play pre-date Boucher...so we can keep going back and blame the assistant running special teams or...at some point...you need to look to the guy who's accountable for the staff and holding the players responsible, too.

I'm not hollering for him to be fired immediately...but I'm not glossing over his glaring shortcomings, either.


It's my way of writing... My bad on that part... It's obviously not simple...

But the inconsistencies were there with Babcock, no? And before him as well when they stank
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Mar. 18 at 1:42 p.m.
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
It's my way of writing... My bad on that part... It's obviously not simple...

But the inconsistencies were there with Babcock, no? And before him as well when they stank


Ironically...Babcock's issues...from what I remember our complaints mostly being...was that he wasn't playing Matthews/Marner enough (he always deferred to the high-effort grinders)....now we're complaining that Keefe's only answer seems to be turning to those players ...basically we just like complaining whenever we don't win and we all make up solutions to problems that may not have anything to do with it
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Mar. 18 at 1:43 p.m.
#1043
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Quoting: aadoyle
Monahan really dont fit what the leafs should be wanting to go for this summer.

They basically have their 4 centers with a 5th pushing for a job potentially out of TC again


I think he represents a need...maybe just not a priority. We're gonna need a 2C and I don't think we have that right now
Mar. 18 at 1:50 p.m.
#1044
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Quoting: Juice
Ironically...Babcock's issues...from what I remember our complaints mostly being...was that he wasn't playing Matthews/Marner enough (he always deferred to the high-effort grinders)....now we're complaining that Keefe's only answer seems to be turning to those players ...basically we just like complaining whenever we don't win and we all make up solutions to problems that may not have anything to do with it


I think we all look to the coach as the issue when we got to look at the league and realize nobody's close to 82-0-0
Mar. 18 at 1:51 p.m.
#1045
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Also, why have we gone away from Bert on the PP?
Mar. 18 at 1:59 p.m.
#1046
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Quoting: aadoyle
Monahan really dont fit what the leafs should be wanting to go for this summer.

They basically have their 4 centers with a 5th pushing for a job potentially out of TC again


Not sure I entirely agree with that but at the end of it, we can always switch C to wing but not all wingers can be C
Mar. 18 at 2:00 p.m.
#1047
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Quoting: fangm
If you fired him today then Guy Boucher as an interim till the summer.

You can throw any stats you want to justify his decisions but you cannot deny he has been out coached in every single playoff series he's been in. The fact that the "issues" we bring up are always special teams, defensive structure, transition these are systems that are implemented by the coach. Florida and Boston have significantly worse rosters on paper but they have systems that work. Toronto doesn't and never has under Keefe.


That's not entirely correct. Keefe did implement a system that does work in the regular season but come playoff time he doesn't adjust. In the regular season you rarely play the same team twice in a row, so you don't worry about making major adjustments to your system during the season. It's more about locking it in, developing an identity and becoming consistent. Which the Leafs do more or less. Come playoff time though the other team makes adjustments to score more and allow less and Keefe never does the same. That's why he should be fired.

There are other reasons as well, he can't develop players at all, never gives young guys proper chances and always has a whipping boy or two.
Mar. 18 at 2:07 p.m.
#1048
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Quoting: Juice
I think he represents a need...maybe just not a priority. We're gonna need a 2C and I don't think we have that right now


I think it all depends on Minten's development among other factors

But between 2024 and 2025 it seems 2025 has the better C options and ones that are more up Brad's lane

Moving back to Minten honestly I can see him eventually being the future 2c for TOR as he gives off Cirelli like vibes
Mar. 18 at 2:17 p.m.
#1049
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Quoting: aadoyle
I think it all depends on Minten's development among other factors

But between 2024 and 2025 it seems 2025 has the better C options and ones that are more up Brad's lane

Moving back to Minten honestly I can see him eventually being the future 2c for TOR as he gives off Cirelli like vibes


Sometime down the road...maybe...I don't see him as a 2C on a cup contending team inside of the next 4-5 years and we need someone to fill that role once they realize JT is no longer the answer.
Mar. 18 at 2:37 p.m.
#1050
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Quoting: Juice
Sometime down the road...maybe...I don't see him as a 2C on a cup contending team inside of the next 4-5 years and we need someone to fill that role once they realize JT is no longer the answer.


I find with these guys its a you never know as prospects can all of a sudden go hey check this out

Like Matthew Poitras (same draft year a few spots lower) came out of no where. Minten had a good camp last year and it did earn him a spot granted for a short time but it did help a bit and through watching him his game is only continuing to grow more and more. So its a wait and see but would not surprise me if he possibly forces the issue in a year or two as nothing wrong with integrating some ELC's into the roster.
 
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